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for twenty dollars a month each for a year. so, ditch the other guys and switch today. buy one line of unlimited, get one free for a year with xfinity mobile! plus, save even more and get an eligible 5g phone on us! visit xfinitymobile.com today. next event or inspire your team, checkout for imprint.com in brynn for certain, i'm caitlin poland's at the federal court washington, and this is cnn it's thursday, may 2, right now on cnn this morning, donald trump squeezing into campaign stops and critical battleground states before heading back to new york for his hush money trial right now in los angeles, police and protesters and attendance ongoing campus standoff. the latest details ahead. and vice president harris in full campaign mode, making the case, one man is responsible for the fall of roe versus wade good

morning alive. >> look at capitol hill on this thursday morning, i'm kasie hunt. welcome to cnn. this morning donald trump returned to the campaign trail and he had with him rhetoric that is to put it very plainly, quite dark on wednesday, the former president visited two battleground states, michigan and wisconsin in those key states, we heard this 2024 is our final battle with you at my side, we will demolish the deep state. we will expel the warmongers from our government we will drive out the globalists. we will cast out the communists, marxists, fascists we will throw off the sec, political class that hate sharp country. >> we will rout out the fake news media. >> we will drain the swamp, and we will liberate our country from these tyrants and villains. once and for all he left out the word vermin in that version, but he did say our final battle. he said

liberate our country from tyrants and villains. this is of course language we've heard before as trump has demonized his opponents, democrats, judges the media. immigrants from countries. well, i don't really want to repeat what he said about that. tv interview with the milwaukee journal sentinel that he did on this trip. he said this about the upcoming election, quote, if everything's honest, i'll gladly accept the results. i don't change on that trump's said and if it's not, you have to fight for the right of the country. scan about questions of political violence and of course with trump, we have to wonder, do we take them literally? we've learned over the past years covering him to really, honestly believe him. >> when he says what he's gonna do. and this is a preview of the next six months of the election possibly a second trump term. our panelists here to discuss joining us now is jonah goldberg, co-founder editor in chief of the dispatch, and molly ball, senior political correspondent for the wall street journal. and we're also joined by jim van to hide the co-founder and

ceo of axios. jim good morning to you there have been these questions at sparked about political violence that we started talking about this week anyway, with this time interview, where he was asked, is there going to be violence and he basically said, well, if it's a fair election, shore. >> and as we've learned his definition of fair seems to be the donald trump wins when you hear all of these things, were you come down on how concerned the country should be about it? is it just talk having been at the capitol on january 6, i tend to hear something different than just talk how do you look at it? >> i mean, it's not just talk. i think it's been consistent from the beginning. he's never said yes, i would just accept the election results if i lost and no, i would never encourage jenny kind of political violence. he's been he's always given themselves this flexibility and a couple of things that people should keep in mind. one, the last two elections, last election, you move 40,000 votes and three states you have a different outcome election before they even 78,000 votes and three states, you have a different outcome when all likelihood, you're going to have a very

close election determined it by few hundred thousand people in seven different states. so the likelihood that we have a very contentious outcome is very high. well, last time we had that, you had a capital that got stormed and the trump might want a pardon, people, but people have to step back and even if you'd like the guy, people died people died, half dozen people died to police officers killed themselves from the trauma in the aftermath of it, like that's real. so the idea always going to pardon these guys are warriors, are patriots and just kinda normal behavior. it's kind of like what's happening on campuses. it's not at all. there's nothing normal about it. so people yes, he says things all the time. you don't know what to take seriously i would, take it seriously and there's a lot of people out there who do take it seriously. and we saw what happened last time when they did take it seriously. yeah. >> jonah goldberg mean what should we be doing to prepare for november in the event that all of this does unfold as jim is just talked about, and as trump has, has basically plainly said, yeah well, i like salt pills bottle water, purifier tablets are better.

are you prepare i agree with jim is punditry entirely in terms of how close this is going to be and all that kind of stuff. but it's important just to emphasize, we didn't get the violence because the election was closed last time. we got the violence because there was this orchestrated campaign to misinformed the public that the election had been stolen. write them is the mass of fraud effort because the election was in early november and the violence was on january 6, that was not stemming from the closest that was stemming from the campaign that said spent the last four years with him kind of reinforcing that narrative and kinda priming people to hear it again, yet know what, what's, what's amazing is. it actually hasn't been four years. it's been more like three. my colleague, david drucker pointed out to me yesterday, when he interviewed them three years ago, he was still saying january 6 was a bad thing. like he was still saying it was regrettable are a few bad there was some bad apples and i wish it hadn't happened now, it's like it was awesome. this was like martyrs day. and i think

that that is part of problem. it's a public it's a deliberate campaign to get people prepped to be intimidating. and to have the threat of violence hanging over things. >> while we i think that's all true. i think i hope that that law enforcement is a deterrent here, right? i mean trump has said he would pardon some of the people arrested and convicted for their behavior on january 6. but a hundreds i think over 1,000 people have i've been prosecuted and the time since then when trump has tried to summon if not a mob, a big group of supporters to something other than a rally in his defense. they haven't shown up in the same force, so i would hope that we as a country learned a lesson from what happened on january 6. most people didn't like it most people saw what happened there as a terrible tragedy and a stain on our democracy. and so you know, there, there's been legislation not to say that everything can be solved with policy and that kind of thing. but we have i think law

enforcement will be better prepared for any potential and she'll post-election violence. and we did have a reform of the electoral count act which makes it less likely that something specifically like january 6 happens again but i absolutely trump is laying the groundwork for the same type of of saga where he does know the last thing i would say though, is that looking at the polls right now, the most likely outcome is that trump wins fair and square. and in that case, nothing. >> well, yeah, fair enough. just just as a reminder, two, we're talking about january 6 and how the narrative has changed around that. this is how the president's sometimes starts. the former president sometimes starts at his rallies with this song sung by i january 6, hostages, he calls them ladies and gentlemen. >> please rise for the horribly and unfairly treated. january 6 toss ditches. >> do you see the spirit from

the hostages and that's it's what they are as hostages. they've been treated terribly unbelievable patriots and they were unbelievable patriots and our jim van high, i mean, you're right, this is going to be a close election. if he keeps doing this like our general election voters independence actually going to go for that and again, like please one they interest you so goofy, right? >> you can't help it that chuckle about it, but there's just like there's always these intellectual inconsistencies like on one hand, you can't say other patriots fan or hostages and look at those hoodlums on college campuses are bursting at buildings in breaking glass wait, what happened on january 6? so it's like i know two people punish him for it. i don't i look at the same polls that you do. we talked to the same people. i think there's just so many people out there who've just tune all of us out and everything out and i can say filter lab and they, for some reason you look at the polls, there's just this

nostalgia that out when trump was weird, but may i my taxes were low yeah, january 6 was bad, but regulatory environment seemed favorable to my business. and that seems to be what's keeping him a float in those seven in those seven states. and i think that is what viewers have to remember these national polls are meaningless. there's is basically seven states that are highly competitive, that had been narrowly determined in the last couple of elections is going to be the same thing. this time around in that is why president biden's worry if you look at those seven states and they consistently look better for trump as mileages pointed out, and they do for biden that it was put them up. yeah. pennsylvania 49 biden 50. trump, michigan, and 51 biden 49, trump wisconsin, 49, 50. i mean, that makes your point. i just there for you. and i will say the one thing in the national poll that is potentially encouraging is the number of people that say democracy is an important issue, up to 58% are recent poll say they care about that. i just again, having been at the capitol watching the mob outside now to hear the former president's say that as he starts at these rallies, is

pretty head-spinning jim. thank you. i really appreciate your time this morning coming up next here at ucla. attempt stand-off between police and protesters, be alive on the campus with a witness sometimes it takes a different approach to see the possibilities all around you thank you for coming together. let's capella universities game changing flux path format, take courses on your own terms and applied his guilty you learned right away imagine your future differently compelling university did you know you could remodel your kitchen faster and less expensive than the big box stores. >> the cabinets to go customize your dream kitchen with custom quality cabinets, countertops in florida so transforming

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see why comcast business powers more small businesses than anyone else. get started for $49.99 a month plus ask how to get up to an $800 prepaid card. don't wait- call today. at dubow tv.com so this playoffs, great teammates trust each other. >> we're going to do a trust was stand up, trust. >> what you're suddenly up doc told him he was a dummy our breaking news right now. a tense standoff on the ucla campus after police entered the protesters encampment a group of faculty members at the encampment to support the students in protesters telling cnn, they expect to be arrested in the coming hours. >> all of this developing one night after a violent clashes between the two protest groups cnn's nick watt is on the campus. cla nick, what are you seeing yeah. >> so casey, i'm just going to get out of the way so you can see what i'm seeing. so in the

past few minutes, there's group of police officers has just it looks like they're actually moving into the encampment as we speak, they're moving forward. you see the proton esters have flashlights. they're shining in the police officers faces. they have umbrellas, protection against pepper spray or or tear gas yep. i am seeing officers pulling aside this barricade that has been put up around the encampment. they are throwing the pallets aside. they are clearly getting ready to move in. i've been hearing facts from inside the encampment. hold the line hold the line. now, the police have given these encampment. residents a long time to get out. they've said, if you stay, you're liable for arrest. you might get hurt. they've given them a long time, clearly, a large number of these protesters have decided to stay and they will be arrested. these police officers. now you see them pushing it. those barriers trying to get into the encampment they are going to be moving in and we've got to assume they're going to be

arresting the protesters that they find in their this in cameron has been here for a week they were told earlier today than they should get out. they've been given time to get at many of these protesters have not gotten out. so the police now moving in. can you see that huge board being lifted off of the barricade? so that these officers can come in here. i believe we've got an arrest that looks like somebody has been arrested and is being taken the barricade is being torn down, screams from behind me, from the pro-palestinian protesters who do not like what they are seeing yep so we've got our the first tom. did you see this person here? >> yeah. okay. okay i've just seen a flare go up i've just seen somebody running. >> there. are people running the police are tearing down that barricade. casey. they are going to be moving in. we saw

the protesters reinforcing that barricade today determined to stay. it has come to this now, in the early hours the morning here in los angeles, the police are moving in the police are moving in screams from behind me screams from behind me. the flashlights being shown in the eyes of those officers as they tried to move in now, the protesters, of course, their demands, they wanted divestment. the college said that was never going to happen the protests or said they were never going to leave. it was almost inevitable. it was going to come to something like this. but ucla for a week now has been trying to avoid a confrontation like this they have kept law enforcement really in the background that all changed last night, went pro israel protesters attacked the camp in a sense, the were

scuffles, physical altercations the governor today called for a much greater police response. the mayor cold for a much greater police response. the university obviously agreed. we have seen dozens, hundreds of california highway patrol lapd, sheriff's officers on this on this campus today. and here they are in the early hours of the morning moving into that in common, we can season tense now shaking as those officers move in, there are dozens of tents in their dozens of tents and i can't really get how many people the last time i looked over that wall, there were hundreds they were told to get out. they were given time to get out. unclear how many of them did get out. clearly, a large number of them stayed large number of tents that camp has been there for a while and you know, i was told by a

source that law enforcement concerned about human waste in that camp. they were concerned that some of these protesters could have bear spray on them. so okay. so now we've just seen california highway patrol getting their pitons ready they have zip ties on their waste as well. they have gas masks they are ready to move in excuse me, please clearly a very tense situations seen the first yeah, we've seen the first wave go in. >> casey waiting to see what happens next. >> yeah. standby for me. >> we're gonna be going to keep banks from behind us thanks banks might suggest measures just far works, i believe, just just fine as far works just fireworks. okay. >> nick standby for me. we're going to keep our eyes on your camera as this unfolds. and

i'll be, i'll be right back with you, but i do want to bring into this conversation former fbi director andrew mccabe, who has been standing by watching this unfold, and andy, can you this this is obviously a very tense situation right now. where are we can were actually able to see the police officers going in to try to clear this out. the universities have waited to try to avoid scenes like this, but now we're here as you watch this unfold, what are you thinking about in terms of what are those officers thinking about as they are approaching this and do you think mistakes were made that we got to this point at all can you see i think a lot of decisions we'll be reviewed and the aftermath of whatever plays out here. >> and i think there's some clear signs that maybe point in that direction. so just to kind of set the scene for what we're seeing right now, i think nick use the right word when he referred to as inevitable this

conflict was we're on our way to this have been on our way to this for several days as dug in and passionate as these protesters are. you should understand that law enforcement has a very, very limited option limited menu of options to use just to try to address this situation issue where the property owners, essentially the people responsible for this space, have called in law enforcement and said these people are here illegally. we want them gone so they have to be removed. >> and as soon as you apply force to that to that dynamic, to that kind of volatile relationship, you have to understand that law enforcement sees this almost in an existential terms. they cannot be denied. there's no scenario in which police officers are gonna go in their surround this camp, asked people to leave and then shrug their shoulders and walk away when they don't

leave. >> it is simply a matter of escalation. i think that the i think they've done a few things. >> well, particularly over the last as several hours it's clear that once they issued that tactical alert and los angeles where they basically inform the city that they were prioritizing most of their available law enforcement to this matter, and that other calls for law enforcement assistance might not be responded to this was we knew this was coming. they waited until what it's a little after 3:00 in the morning and los angeles in an effort to probably draw that crowd down as much as they could they were undoubtedly many, many people who had come to this just to see what was going to happen, maybe warrant affiliated with either side in this dispute, but where we're adding to the crowd and the raw numbers of people that police have to deal with. and so they waited until a moment probably when that crowd drew down somewhat.

>> their now doing what they were unavoidably going to have to do for several days. >> and that is dismantle this camp and remove the people who have been informed that they were that they were occupying the space unlawfully for the individual officers, i mean, you can't possibly imagine how tense and frightening this is a moment like this is to go into some of the things that i think they may have thought differently about clearly the protesters were able to augment their camp with an enormous amount of physical obstacles. you see you apply ward, you see wooden pallets shipping palettes you see police barricades that have been drawn into the camp in an effort to kind of fortify their lines. they're none of that should have been allowed to have happened as this is developed

over the last week or so anyone who approached campus with this big eight foot sections of plywood should have been turned around or or detained at the perimeter of campus and never even allowed to join this group. so i think in their effort to be evenhanded and you know a little bit more kind of have a lower profile in responding to this event. they've, in some ways contributed to these protesters and whoever is organizing them, their ability to really turn this into a fortified and kammen which gives you the situation you're at now it also is curious to me that you really have very little light there which enables the protesters to use light like flashlights, hie, powerful flashlights to distract and blind the officers as they approach the camp.

>> they should probably have thought more about bringing in temporary lighting, which is pretty easy to do it's used a construction sites and other places all the time. >> and we would have the police officers would have it have a better advantage in terms of being able to see what they're doing but don't those are all kinda details around the fringes. the bottom line is we have a very volatile situation here and it's going to look horrible as it plays out. there's no question about that. >> yeah. all right. andy. thank you so much for all biden said standby for me. jonah goldberg is here on set as we watch these events unfold live. ucla as these police officers are going in to try to clear out this encampment jonah, the big picture of what we're seeing here. i mean, we saw a couple of days ago a people hammering through windows at columbia. now, obviously these scenes are incredibly dramatic over this

issue. of course, of peaceful protesting in the name of the children of gaza is absolutely one thing we have seen lines crossed, however, with some of this yeah. >> i think part of the problem is we've people will say, well, it's free speech, it is free speech when it's done properly, inappropriately, time, place, and manner restrictions, and all that, then when it goes beyond the bounds of free speech, let's say, well, civil disobedience, the refused to leave occupied buildings, they refused to leave illegal encampments and that kind of thing. and the problem is, is in our culture, we've forgotten as martin luther king would often explain that the point is civil disobedience is if you face an unjust law and i don't think these laws are remotely unjust. these people are hampering education, but whatever, if you think they're unjust laws you defy them peacefully, quietly with dignity, and then you've accept the consequences of the punishment. >> yeah, that was always a key part. >> that's the key part of it. and if you have these campuses have let it be known that civil

disobedience is part of the general cost play of protest, culture at some of these schools and there will be no consequences for it. well, you're going to get more of it and that's why now a lot of these student radicals are demanding, quote-unquote amnesty for everything they're doing is they're like wait a second. we're actually going to be held accountable for the things that we were doing that were illegal, that we were told not to do, that we're against the rules, against the law. and so i think this is all welcome. i mean, i don't want anyone to get hurt but this is the tolerance for this stuff, begets more of this stuff, and it's long past time to sort of reinforce the basic rules molly ball, there'd been a couple mornings this week when i've wondered if this would force at president biden to say something about this. >> and i we do know that he's got a big anti-semitism speech planned for may 7th, but we've only heard from spokespeople, mostly off-camera and mostly on paper. as things have unfolded at columbia and now here at ucla, as we're seeing live on

the screen, we're watching some of the members of this encampment being arrested by law enforcement on-site california highway patrol. as this goes on, is the white house going to be forced to say something about this? you know, i think they're really on the spot here and i think that we've seen them tread very gingerly because these images of disorder or these images of chaos are our bad politically. >> i, specifically for the democrats, right? i mean, the idea that these are, these are biden's policies in protested and i think as a result, we've seen him handle this very, very gingerly. but there's a potential that that makes him look week and that by not sort of forcefully articulating where he stands and where he sees the leinz as being you know, you have a candidate who's, who's literally on i'm trial on criminal charges. donald trump, who's making the case that he is the candidate of law and order, is making the case that he's the candidate

who would who would be able to stance this sort of chaos and bring order to the country that it's sort of an absurd contradiction in terms and yet the fact that the president has sort of exerted leadership to say how he sees this situation and to say what he liked to have happen and to back law enforcement and call for some sort of order. i think it's a real vacuum of leadership right now. >> kelly williams is here. now with us on the panel as we watch this unfold live, are nick watt is somewhere very close to that. so we're going to get back to him in just a second. but elliott, jonah was talking about the legacy of martin luther king and how that form of civil disobedience involve accepting a consequences once laws were broken they obviously ucla has gotten to the point where as andy mccabe was outlining this encampment was surrounded by

wooden pallets and plywood and all these physical barriers that these officers are nap having to remove there have been sorts of questions about the campus jurisdiction, campus police, what what kind of punishments these people should face i mean legally speaking how do you view how the universities have handled this in terms of punishments they can throw at these people. and how do you think we proceed from here on that front? >> well, let's start with the universities. i think they have almost a different authority than actual police, right now because their standards tend to be a little bit fuzzier, like we were talking about the other day on the program columbia university, their whole speech plan lays out all little things you can and can't say but says, but we're not here to get in the way of people's ability to say uncomfortable things. we are merely trying to set rules around harassment or whatever they're fuzzy standards. it's not clear and we should be

clear the ucla case, we have seen so when it comes to speech on campus fine. >> when it comes to breaking windows are destroying property. there you're not just talking about university roles that you're breaking the law. and this is jonah's point. just a few moments ago one ought to be able to face the consequences of their actions when they break a window or set something on fire or something else? you. don't have the same fuzzy open-ended conceptual roles that you have when it comes to destroying property or things like that. yeah. >> all right. i think are nick watt is with us again, nick, we've been watching these pictures unfold trying to get a sense of what's happening. you are on scene. what have you seen? in the last few minutes well, i mean, just to pick up on a point that i think elliott was making their once we get inside, you will see what we have seen pictures of which is the front of royce hall, that beauty digital brick and stone

facade, refeed very, very badly. >> now, what i'm seeing casey tom, if you pan over there, can you see there are young students with their hands behind their backs, zip-tied. one of them is wearing a helmet. one of them is wearing keffiyeh from inside the camp. i seeing umbrellas. i'm seeing smoke rising. i'm seeing flash bangs. i'm seeing the tense, the easy up being picked up by the officers and moved. i'm seeing the barricade shaking just a minute or two ago though. i did still see a palestinian flag waving in the darkness as this this mission continues, i'm seeing more of those pallets being thrown and you know, you guys were talking earlier about all of these qubits apply word that we're allowed to be brought onto campus. i mean, just this afternoon i watched as lapd and highway patrol stood around

while inside the camp just a few feet from them. those protesters were before defining that barricade, they were we could we could hear the power drills as they were fortifying suspecting that something like this was going to happen and they were just allowed to do that. that was happening as we've been discussing ucla tried to keep a hands off approach this was allowed to become what it became. and it has now come to this. this is a scene that the university did not want but this is what they appended up having this week of yeah. >> yeah. for sure of yeah nick, can i ask you what your reporting has been on scene at columbia? we know the administration after they cleared out the building, said that there were some outside agitator jurors involved what is your reporting on? how ucla

looks at this encampment? do they believe there are outsiders involved? >> there are. i can tell you. i know there are because i've seen people who i recognized who are over at the ucl, the usc protest earlier i've seen i've recognized people from other protests who are here. and you can there are students in absolutely for sure, but there for also outsiders. and we saw that last night when those pro israeli counter protesters came onto campus, clearly some of them, most of them, if not all of them, were also not students, they were outside agitators they are drawn to these campuses because the campuses have become the focal point. now some of them will have some silly held beliefs on either side. some of them are here for a fight. >> yeah. and elliot williams mean what is the difference between outsiders and students in a situation like this? well, non from the eyes of law

enforcement, if a police officer witnesses or it gets evidenced at something, the crimes were committed. of course, they can go after student or protests are like now the university is limited and what it can do to an outside program because folks may outside aren't subject to university ethics rules or dining hall rules or anything like that, but no, in the eyes of law enforcement everyone's the same, particularly where there's a volatile situation where lots of people are committing the same accident concerts jonah goldberg, we were talking a little bit about the president and what he should or could do to condemn this or go further than he has if that were to be the tack that he wanted to take. >> and what do you think is the pressure on the president right now? what should you be doing? >> he should be he had this opportunity in when he got elected in 2020 to be basically an eisenhower type avuncular grandpa guy who could come out into american politics every now and then, say, you kids keep that down. don't make me

come in there and then go back and do his work. right. he didn't need to be this transformative guy, this new fdr guy. i think that is the tone of the new normalcy that people wanted from them. and i think i don't think he should be the one to do this, but this is the kind of the kind of message that is surrogates should be doing is to say a look we love. i don't democrats do the culture and tradition of a protest. and the first amendment, this and all that kind of stuff they can do that whole thing and then say, but keep in mind it doesn't always work out for your side. >> the protests is 68 at columbia, which we are still in this fit of ludicrous nostalgia over. >> got it, got richard nixon elected and extended the vietnam war for five more years, right? it was not you can still find people who think that the 68 protests on these campuses ended the vietnam war. i'm like, what parallel universe are you thinking? if these are the images, the images of chaos, chaos at the border, chaos on campuses. people, if middle-class families who struggled to send

their kids to college, graduations canceled because of all of this, and they blame biden for trump will be elected. and that is a message that democrats need to get out to people to their own activist and people work on the street or close to the ground. grassroots and say look coolest down, particularly before the democratic convention. >> or we're screwed. >> that's the message and they need to get out i mean, molly are pulling does underscore that this issue while clearly an emotional one for the people who are out there protesting it is not something that is top of mind for most voters who are concerned more about other things like the economy, like protecting democracy, like crime, which jonah alludes to absolutely. i don't think the public is on the side of these protesters and to jonah's point, i think joe biden was elected to restore a sense of normalcy, a sense of order, a sense to stop the chaos that so many people felt trump represented. and also to restore moral leadership, right? he talked about being moved to run because of

charlottesville, which was a protest that got out of hand where many people said things that were anti-semitic in a way that was very disturbing. and he took a very strong stance on that and he was it's going to restore america's moral leadership in the world, restore a sense of right and wrong again, in the aftermath of trump. and i think to a lot of people, maybe to some of these protesters as well in the other direction. he's sort of forfeited that mantle and they don't see where he is in terms of saying, we have a sense of right and wrong here and we know where the lines are really interesting, okay we're going to keep our eyes on this unfolding situation. >> are nick watt is on the scene. we're going to take a quick break go up next we are going to talk with democratic congresswoman jennifer mcclellan, virginia do qizan life with dr. sanjay gupta. listen wherever you get your podcast today, at america's beverage companies, are bottles might still look the same, but they can be remade in a whole

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today all right, welcome back. >> we are in live coverage of ucla as police officers have moved to dismantle an encampment that had been ordered to disband. are nick what has been on the scene of for us as we have watched them toss aside barricades, that had been erected around this encampment. we have seen a handful of people being led away from the scene, seeming to be arrested, are we're gonna continue our conversation here with virginia democratic congresswoman jennifer mcclellan, congresswoman. thank you so much for joining us now. your district includes foods vcu which also has grappled with tense protests. law enforcement, presence. this obviously is also something that has really split your democratic party at what do you think president biden should be doing or saying about the scenes we're seeing unfolding on college campuses i think right now we need to make sure that we are remaining calm and

de-escalating the situation as quickly as possible. >> it is difficult not being on the ground with that information in front of you beyond what we're seeing on tv to step in to do that this is mostly a local law enforcement matters but i do think making sure that we are encouraging law enforcement to strike that balance between allowing the exercise of free speech rights and the restoring of, of order. and public safety. it's a delicate balance that i think needs com rational approach and i think that mostly needs to happen at the local level in cases where there has been violence like the case of ucla, we saw that violence at breaked out. do not see that. do you see that? there should be a different set of reactions compared to, i mean, some of

these protests are clearly not peaceful. >> well, again, i said your exercise of your free speech rights and under the law is very clear that there's a difference between peaceful protests and violence in responding to breaking laws by committing violence, by trespassing, vandalism is is different than cracking down on lawful free speech. >> so there has been a pretty sharp divide also inside the democratic caucus about this. you had several jewish members of congress go to columbia university walk with students there while you also had other members, ilhan omar, for example, visiting her daughter in the student protests at columbia, how emotional is this issue? is this reality among your colleagues? >> it is it is a very emotional issue anytime you are dealing with war, anytime you are dealing with life and death anytime you're dealing with people who feel unsafe, it's

emotional. but we've been here before as a country i i hope that people are learning the lessons from the protests and 2020 in the 60s and are bringing a proportionate response. and i think making sure that we are striking that right balance which some universities have been able to do, and others are struggling with do you think that universities where antisemitism has reared its ugly head should face losing their federal funding as some colleagues and your colleagues in the house of suggested, i think we need to be very careful to make sure we not violating any first amendment rights and have you anti-semitic. >> some of these signs there was one of my alma mater, george washington university that had final solution on it. >> i think the most the more

horrific the speech, the harder it is to protect free speech rights. and it's a balance and it is not it it is, it is, it is not easy to strike that balance, but it's more important that you do it when the speech is not speech, you agree with when it's speech, that is a poor, it but i may not agree with people say they have a right to say it. >> i will point though, does some of that speech crossed the line into harassment as some of these college presidents were pressed on it at hearings on the hell, i mean, i think when you are creating a an unsafe space, university presidents also have the responsibility to create a safe space for students to receive an education. and if it crosses the line to making students feel unsafe, then you need to step in and address it all right. >> comes from a clone. thank

you very much for spending some time with us today. i hope you'll come back and we can talk about we had originally planned to discuss abortion rights. there've been some significant developments there. i'd love to have you back on that when you have time. thank you. thank you very much for being here all right. we are continuing to cover these unfolding developments at ucla as police are entering and arresting some of these protesters who were ordered to disband and did not disband. so we are now of course watching as they are removing barricades, they've been they've been seen thrown pallets, plywood, barricades at removing those from outside of this encampment. and we've been reporting live on the cnr. nick watt reported that some of the people in these protests are outsiders. two, ucla, he said, of course some of them are students, but that is an element of what we are dealing with here jonah goldberg, can i just bring you in in terms of responding to what the congresswoman had to say i mean, this is the question i keep coming back to in terms of the nature of these protests

especially on college campuses where for years there was this issue where people didn't want conservatives to come and talk at all. they were afraid of having them talk because they said, well, this was aggressive. but then on the other hand it's now suddenly difficult to answer questions about whether some of the speech that seems to be directly violent and threatening towards jewish students is acceptable or not are harassment or not i think that's kinda what i'm struggling with. yeah. they'll look and this is the core problem that these campuses have gotten themselves into. >> they've been there's an old saying that behind every double standard is an uncontested single standard. they didn't really think there was any conflict between social justice values and free-speech values when all the speech on campus with speech that they agreed with. and that the only people than they get confused and conflict they got caught up in this idea that words can be violence, but violence can be words that you can if you say mean or triggering things,

whatever the right word is that that should be treated as an as aggressive and then but the problem is they also got into this thing that said israel's bad because it's this part of this, according to this oppressor ideology. and so you could say things like gas, the jews and that, that's just free speech. and since that double standard, that has exposed, got all those, those college presidents and trouble before congress it's gotten them into trouble here because they love the idea of protest. but they teach it. i just want through the course catalog at columbia for peace, i was writing the number of courses they teach, lionizing and glorifying protest as the vital part of social justices amazing and then they get into this problem of not knowing how to discipline protest that they are ideologically sympathetic with mollie. >> you raise your eyebrows it at one point during what jonah was saying there was what were you thinking? >> no, i think it's absolutely true and i think that a lot of this is downstream from a lot of these conflicts that have

been unfolding on campuses over the last decade or more where the. ideological monolith and the hypocrisy in many cases, on issues of speech. and so i think in a lot of people's minds, these campuses are reaping what they've sown in the way that they have taught students to regard these issues. whether you're talking can you about israel, palestine, or or just the general sort of radicalism that has permeated a lot of the politics of these campuses let's go back to our nick watt, who is on the scene documenting this as it's been unfolding. >> nick over to you. it's the latest well, we've just seen another filings of about a dozen police officers moving past us to the encampment. we've also seen about half of that barricade has now been

removed by law enforcement. we've seen a lot of those easy ups moving we're draw attention to one banner told me if you pan right little bit, that blue banner, you probably can't read it, but it says, ucla faculty and staff, we stand with our students. that's a banner we've been seen. we've been seeing over the past week. i don't know who's holding it right now, but it's interesting that that is still being displayed, that sentiment is still being played. now, can you see that flashlight moving around? so protesters were being given flashlights earlier. they are moving around, flashing them in the eyes of these officers coming in. we've now seen i would say tens, dozens of arrests and stephanie becker that producer has been working with me on this story for the past 20 so hours. she has determined that they are taking those arrested students and protesters to a bus to those buses that we know were staged earlier in a federal parking lots is about a mile away from here. are those are now near the campus and

these arrested people are being taken. those buses flash bangs still going off. we've seen from coming from inside the encampment what seems to be fire extinguishers being set off. i cannot be sure about that, but that's what it looks like from a distance i can taste smoke in my mouth. you know, we were talking earlier in the evening about whether there would be resistance. i mean, it's difficult self from this distance, but with those flashlights still moving around, the palestinian flags still waving and the time it is taking to move through this encampment. there clearly is some resistance, but the people we have seen arrested coming out they have not been showing resistance. there have been compliant. they are kneeling on the ground, one woman as she was walking past did say i did not consent to a search. i did not consent to a search. that is about the only sort of defiance that we have heard from the people who have been arrested coming by. now, many

of them wearing helmets, goggles, umbrellas against tear gas, but as i say, we have not seen seen any of these people resisting arrest, but from the scenes that we can see inside the camp, it doesn't appear that it is totally compliant. one of our security officers, danny, which is walking past and he said that he sold the protesters loading what looked like doors and other debris. still trying to reinforce the barricade around the encampment, even as this is going on, back to you, casey nick, those banks that were hearing behind you. can you just kind of bring us into what is that still fireworks that you're talking about earlier? >> no. there was there was the were a couple of fireworks earlier, but those are flash bangs, those are being sent in by officers and there are also projectiles coming from inside the in camera that i cannot entirely tell what they are. we're now seeing a lot of

smoke, also the source of that. i cannot be sure what that is, but as i say can tasted it in my mouth from a little bit away we're seeing a lot of tents being thrown up. i've seen traffic cones, bucket's being thrown out unclear who is actually throwing them, but there is clearly a scene of some chaos going in and they're going on in there at the moment. i'm seeing one more palestinian flag being defiantly waived as officers or and more officers are moving into the encampment, but boy. oh boy, this a scene that ucla did not want. this is ugly. listen, we saw colombia last night in new york, 300 arrests i don't know this seems like a far uglier seen than we saw at columbia yesterday back to you. >> does look really difficult at nec. very grateful to have your excellent reporting throughout this hour on this

live scene. thank you very much still having a conversation here. with our panel, elliot williams at based on what nick was just saying i just throwing things at officers if that's what's happening. and again, he said he couldn't tell what the projectiles were, where they're coming from. but these projectiles coming out of the encampment as police are moving in here, that seems like a serious thing. >> oh, it's very serious. the problem is that it's dark and it's coming out of nowhere. how are you going to find someone apprehend them in prosecute them or arrest them, whatever else for those acts there were plenty people arrested over the course of the evening for brexit, and it seemed to be happening in plain view of officers, but the flying and hurling things, it's one of those unfortunate consequences of law enforcement that may just end up going on addressed. >> yeah molly ball, we've been talking a little bit about how this sort of impacts at the politics that we are seeing.

and i do think one thing that's it's worth remembering and all of this is a big part of why these universities want these sites cleared is so that they can safely hold commencement ceremonies on their grounds. and this is the class of 2024 that had their high school graduations taken from them. many of them back in 2020. and that's something that really potentially ripples across the country for many, many families. i was we were speaking with one person who had a friend whose family was flying in from south korea and they weren't sure if they could attend. they're child's commencement at columbia? >> yeah. well, and i think a lot of these universities are hoping that this all dies down if they're able to clear this out and then hold commencement ceremonies if they are in fact able to do that, and then it's the summertime and maybe kids aren't on campus. but i think that really remains to be seen. i mean, look, outsiders are not a lot of these protests are the results bolt of organic passion on the part of a lot of young

people. and they are very mad at the administration. they're very mad at joe biden. and i don't think that that is going to stop as long as there's still a conflict in the middle east. and even if that is resolved, i don't think they're going to stop being angry so we've pretty seen that the president and vice president can't go anywhere without protests. i think a lot of these commencements are themselves going to draw protests, especially if they have speakers that are political in any way. and we're just going to continue to see these scenes unfold. >> you, joan, i mean, the president present biden supposed to speak at morehouse college? yeah. >> give it announcement. i do think it's important to keep in mind that these are representative of a real problem within the democratic coalition that biden is going to deal with. but one of the reasons why it's a problem is that it divides his coalition while at the same time most. people in this country don't go to college, right and most people who go to college aren't participating in these things. and most colleges

don't have these problems. and so when we see it blasted out here and it's gotten a massive coverage, it's everything that people are talking about. everyone's writing about it it is putting a magnifying glass on a very elite phenomenon that is dividing a very elite segment of a coalition. >> and i think it is a just a enormously thorny problem for biden figured out how to navigate yeah. >> the president yet to weigh in himself directly on this even has his rival, the republican presumptive republican nominee donald trump, spoke about it on the campaign trail in key swing states yesterday. again, you have been watching at police move in to ucla to arrest people in an encampment that was told that they needed to disband but many have not disbanded. we have been live with art nick watt, who has been on scene all night. we're very grateful to him for being there for us as we watch