agency was born out of the idea that nature is a seamless web of life. a poet, once said, thou cants not touch a flower without the troubling of a star. so we have to protect the whole environment. we are not in business to move pollution around from one place to another. we have to realize that pollution control itself generates some risk and that the art is in deciding as free and response. simple people what risks we are willing to live with and what we are willing to spend to reduce them. we have come a long way in just 15 years. the american people have risen to the challenge of living more gently in the natural world with their continuing support. we in the environmental protection agency can move on to fulfill our mission in its

deepest sense, which is to shape the nation and the planet. we intend to leave to our children. let us modify this lab first and let you down. and everyone know stamps of decency, sir, at long last, have you left? no answer. and this week on congress, investigate. it's the 1950s and the era of mccarthy ism. we'll explore the hearings. republicans senator joseph mccarthy of wisconsin and instigated as he search for alleged communists in government. and we'll also look at the subsequent investigation of senator mccarthy himself over

his attacks on the us army, which led to the senator's downfall. joining us is jim townsend, director of the levin center for oversight and democracy. mr. townsend. what was the mccarthy era? well, the mccarthy era was a period in the early 1950s where the public had become really quite concerned about the possibility of communist infiltration into major american institutions, including the united states government and senator mccarthy, who was a first te sator from wisconsin, took advantage of that public concern. and his position on certain key committees in the senate to start raising allegations, making allegations against various institutions in the government, particularly in the military and in aspects of the state department.

and he used his position as a congressional investigator to hold numerous hearings, both in private and in public, to explore these allegations and then to make further accusations about the infiltration of of of communists in american government and american society. mr. townsend, was the red scare alleged intimate thing at that time in the late forties, early fifties? well, i think it's hard to say what's legitimate and what's not. there was there's no doubt that the historical record indicates that there was you know, there were communists who would infiltrated and were spying on the united states. there's no doubt about that. the question is whether the investigations that senator mccarthy mounted were legitimate, whether his tactics were were actually, you know, fair and and proper, and whether

they actually found any evidence of communist infiltration. and the answer is really no. they were not fair. they were not appropriate. they were an abuse of congressional oversight power. and they uncovered virtually no instances of communists infiltration. that does not mean that there was not communist infiltration. other investigations, others analysis has shown that there were people who had invest who had infiltrated the state department. the u.s. military, even the white house. but it turns out that senator mccarthy's investigations probably impeded the effort to try to root out the spies and and protect american national security and the integrity of our institutions. he really hurt that effort because he really wasn't interested in frankly, in succeeding, in finding these

communists. he was really trying to promote himself and build his own political stature more than anything else. when senator mccarthy was elected in 1946, did he come in with this mantra of finding communists in the government? not initially. the record indicates that he was pretty quiet for the first three years of his service, beginning in 1947. it was only in in 1950 that he started to really pick up this issue of communist infiltration. and he gave a very what became a very famous oinfamous speech in wheeling, west virginia, in 1950, where he claimed to have in his hand on a piece of paper a list of 200 known communists who had infiltrated the federal government. he never, of course, released those names and ultimately was never able to prove that the

people he was identifying were actually communist spies. but it raised his profile dramatically, and, you know, to your question about sort of the red scare, his timing was very good. he he seized on this issue in 1950 when it was still a high concern among the population, among among the public. and he gave it a huge shot of adrenaline, basically, and it carried him for several years and made him very prominent. well, mr. townsend mentioned the wheeling, west virginia speech in 1950. historian margaret brennan talked about senator mccarthy's speech. here she is. now, it was at the time of the lincoln day dinner, all across the country, republicans were fanning out speakers to speak at the great gatherings of the lincoln day dinners. and so mccarthy it was a sign to wheeling. now, wheeling at that time was not a big city. we had 59,000 people. it was thursday, february the

ninth, 1950. the dinner itself was held at the mcclure hotel colonnade room. it was to start at 630. it was the ohio county republican women's club, and it was in the papers four days before how they were organizing. this was a big deal for wheeling, he was introduced by william callahan, who was the regional republican bigwig, and they describe him the talk that he gave as intimate and humorous and kind of folksy. he, he he had an irish wit about me. he could be very ingratiating when he wanted to be beautiful. big grin and he pretty much talked about the republican platform as it was laid out. he didn't say too much. he talked about the war between good and evil, between atheistic communism and the christian democratic societies. he talked about the alger, his

trial. now, alger hiss had just been convict, convicted some weeks before of perjury, but actually he was being convicted as a spy. and that was a very big deal. and so he went on about that and then toward the end of the talk he made, what was the key to the talk and what started him on the road to what became known as mccarthyism. and i want to read exactly the words from the newspaper and what he said was, well, i cannot take the time to name all the men in the state department who have been named as members of the communist party and members of a spy ring. i have here in my hand a list of 205, and he waved a piece of paper to the people that were known to the secretary of state as being members of the communist party, who

nevertheless are still working and shaping the policy in the state department. now, anybody that had the sense to hear this was a terrific charge because he was saying there were card carrying communist in the state department working as members of the american government. and the secretary of state knew this and they were still there. well, then he went on, of course, he continued his talk and at the end he said, well, now, you know, it's a moral battle between good and evil. the chips are down. the chips are truly down. he kind of ended with that and there was some questions and answers. he even invited the audience to to talk to him and there it lay now. ww va the local radio station had carried his talk. one of the reporters from the wheeling and telegrams or in in

the paper the next day had reported verbatim a lot of what he had said when mccarthy was to go back to the airport. he was shown the paper and the headline in the wheeling paper was mccarthy charges the reds hold us jobs, and they said he was tickled with the headline and it was beginning to dawn on him. he had something here and he was set up for a series of talks. the next day he flew out to salt lake city. then after that, he was going to go to reno, nevada. and another he made the same statement in salt lake city, except he changed the number from 205 to, i think, 58. then in his next talk and next series of talks, the number went to 81. he was always changing the number because he had no list. he had no names. it was all a big lie. and this is congress investigates, an american history tv series looking at

significant congressional investigations over the years. jim townsend, director of the levin center for oversight and democ racy, is our guest. how much news did that wheeling, west virginia enemies from within speech make and why did he deliver that? well, it made a lot of news. it got a lot of attention. there was no recording, actually, of this speech. so our understanding of it is really based on people's accounts who witnessed the speech, but it was covered in the media and it got a lot of attention because people were were concerned about the possibility that communists were infiltrating not only the government, but hollywood, many other institutions. there had been a series of efforts to to try to find out whether communists were infiltrating our society, arting really with efforts by

the truman administration to require federal employees to take to fill out forms and and give evidence about their own activities and that was a sweeping effort beginning in 1947. there was also an effort in the house of representatives. there was a committee convened called the committee on on un-american activities, which had started doing investigations and holding hearings. so the country was really primed for evidence of communist infiltration. and senator mccarthy, even though he really, it turned out, did not have evidence invented evidence and made a name for himself by doing so. now, the huber committee, richard nixon was very involved with that committee. correct. and held. alger hiss was one of the witnesses that testified before the house un-american activities committee, correct? that's correct.

there were many, many americans were brought before the house un-american activities committee. the committee had several iterations. you're correct that nixon, when he was in the house, was an active participant in that. there were field hearings held all over the country. it became a sort of traveling roadshow, and it generated a lot of local media attention when these hearings were held. and that to, you know, translated into real national attention. so, again, this is all part of that that red scare that occurred in the in the decade that followed the second world war. now, jim towns in wheeling, west virginia in 1950, but it wasn't until 1953 that the republicans took over the senate, had control of the senate and the mccarthy hearings really took off what was going on in those three years prior? well, there had been sort of an

escalating effort to make communism infiltration a major issue in campaigns. and in the 1952 and payne joe mccarthy, who was a senator at that point, was going around the country supporting republican candidates for senate. he he used the issue and he encouraged these candidates to use the issue. and he was quite effective on the people he campaigned for. got elected to the senate and the republican took control of the senate in the 1952 election. and so in 1953, they had a majority in the senate and could could appoint people to committees and chair committees and control the agenda in congress and he became chair of the permanent subcommittee on the day. senator mccarthy, who had been a member of the government affairs committee, became chair of the committee and a the key

investigative subcommittee within that government affairs committee. and that is the permanent subcommittee on investigations. so mccarthy chaired both of these panels and in particular, that permanent subcommittee on investigate issues, which is known as piece i became his vehicle for conducting the investigations that he did in the many, many hearings that he held. he built a staff. he hired some some some pretty prominent attorneys to help him do these, investigate actions. and that became his his mechanism for mounting his effort. jim townsend during this time, what was the truman administra tions response to these hearings? well, the truman administration vigorously defended itself in terms of both, you know, continuing to. require that its, you know, the

members of the administration, members of the, you know, employees in the u.s. government. answer questions about their loyalty and about their activities. so the truman administration was not, you know, backing off from from trying to find communists who might be spying or might be infiltrating the government. but at the same time, they vigorously oppose the kinds of tactics that that senator mccarthy was employing. you know what what senator mccarthy would do would be to basically rely on rumors and even invented evidence to suggest the whole departments of government were under the sway of communists. one of his chief targets early on was the voice of america, which was a service that the united states government provided to broadcast news around the world, particularly in countries that that were under the control of

totalitarian governments. and he claimed that the voice of america had been infiltrated heavily by communists, spies. the trump administration, you know, would examine and look into these allegations and and find that this was not the case. and they would say so. but that didn't stop. senator mccarthy from continuing to hold investigations and conduct hearings both in private and in public. okay. we're calling these the mccarthy hearings, but no special committee was formed. correct. it was the permanent subcommittee on investigate nations that led these hearings. that's right. the permanent subcommittee on investigations was and still is really the premier investigate arm of the u.s. senate. and it had made a name for itself during world war two under the leadership of then senator harry truman when he investigated war profiteering

and corrupt activities among defense contractors who were producing shoddy, shoddy materials, who were engaging in other kinds of corrupt activities that were hurting the war effort during world war two. so psc, as i mentioned, is sort of as it's no. had a pretty pretty prominent reputation as a an effective committee for doing investigations in the public interest. so senator mccarthy had you know, was able to take over that subcommittee and turn it to his own ends, which turned out to be highly politicized and and really improper in the way he conducted investigations. all right. it's 1953, 1954. the mccarthy hearings. this is where senator mccarthy pursued communists in

government. he chaired the permanent subcommittee on investigations. the other republican members, carl mundt of south dakota, everett dirksen of illinois, charles potter of michigan. there were three democrats on the committee as well. john mcclellan of arkansas, henry jackson of washington, and stuart symington of missouri. those hearings lasted from february of 53 through march of 90, 54 for the reports came out beginning in january. of 1954. what can you tell us about the other members of the committee? did they agree with senator mccarthy? were they eager to be on this committee and do this investigation? well, you have to understand the context of the government affairs committee and the permanent subcommittee on investigations. government affairs committee was not the most desirable committee for members to be on. it was sort of a place where

newer members, first term members, would would end up serving because more experienced, more senior members would want to be on higher profile committees. so the interesting thing about the makeup of the committee and particularly that permanent subcommittee, which did the actual investigations and held the hearings, was that was that all of them, except for one, were first term members, including mccarthy himself. he was still in his first term and at least one case mccarthy, who helped that member get elected in the first place. so everett dirksen was a first term senator from illinois. and mccarthy in 1952 had traveled to illinois and campaigned extensively for dirksen. so the bottom line is, is that these members were on this subcommittee. it was it became pretty quickly

divided between the democrats and the republicans. the democrats were led by henry jackson, who was another first term member from jackson, was from washington state. and he and the other democrats were really, really frustrated with the way they were treated by mccarthy. they were not kept in the know about what the slocum party was going to be doing in its investigation. they had no role. they were not allowed to hire their own staff. they were not given notice in a very timely way when hearings were going to be held. so they couldn't prepare an ultimately, the three democrats, jackson john mcclellan, who was the only member who was not a first termer, he was from arkansas. and then stuart simonton, you mentioned from missouri. they resigned from the committee in protest in 1954 because of the behavior of mccarthy in the

way he treated. two other familiar names were part of this investigation. royko, cohn and robert f kennedy. well, what were their roles? well, roy cohn was hired in 1953 when senator mccarthy took over the permanent subcommittee on investigations. he hired cohn to be the chief counsel. cohn was relatively well-known because he had been on the team that prosecuted ethel and julius rosenberg, who were spies, who were convicted of spying and actually executed. so he had a reputation as a very aggressive investigator, a prosecutor. it later became clear that he was very unethical and very abrasive and unethical, but he was the kind of person that would really be an attack dog in the kind of lawyer that that

mccarthy needed. and robert kennedy. robert kennedy was also hired to be assistant counsel on the permanent subcommittee at about the same time in 1953. of course, he was a scion of the massachusetts kennedy family, the democrats and he was an ardent anti-crime. and so were really the kennedy family. the kennedys were very ardent. andy communists and and the patriarch of the kennedy family, joseph kennedy, admired senator mccarthy. so it was not a complete surprise that robert kennedy would would join this effort. but he did not last very long. he began having problems with with roy cohn. they they had very intense conflicts and ultimately had even a fistfight, after which

robert kennedy resigned from from a committee staff. okay. with the mccarthy hearings lasting a little over a year, jim townsend. how many hearings were held? were they closed? were they open to the press, etc.? well, there are hundreds and hundreds of hearings, something like 690 hearings. incredible number of hearings were held during this period. they were a mix of of close and open hearings. early on, a lot of the hearings were held in private and the significance of this is that this allowed senator mccarthy see to after the conclusion of a hearing on a given day, to go out and hold a press conference and characterize what evidence was was given. he would often mischaracterize and exaggerate the findings that they had come up with in the hearing. but there was nobody really

standing up and and opposing and contradicting him. and because the media and the public were not watching, it gave him a platform to continue essentially deceiving the american people and suggesting that he had found a lot of evidence of communists infiltrate fashion when in fact, he had not. well, toward the end of the first series of mccarthy hearings, edward r murrow of cbs news did a special broadcast about joseph mccarthy. here's a portion no one familiar with the history of his country can deny that congressional committees are useful. it is necessary to investigate before legislating. but the line between investigating and persecuting is a very fine one. and the junior senator from wisconsin has stepped over it repeatedly. his primary achievement has been in confusing the public mind as between the internal and the external threats of communism. we must not confuse dissent with

disloyalty. we must remember always that accusation is not proof, and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law. jim townsend of the 11 center housing nif account was this broadcast that edward r murrow did. it was a really significant broadcast. it, you know, a lot of people have pointed to that broadcast as a as a watershed moment. there are scholar who who say that, well, as important as it was, it didn't change history. it was part of a series of events that started to damage the credibility of senator mccarthy. but one important thing to remember is and this is hard for us, you know, in the 21st century to imagine any any media member having the kind of reach that edward r murrow will have, the kind of influence he had. he was the most influential broadcast journalist at the time with an incredible audience of

this size, out of bounds, out of proportion, anything we'd see today. so when he took a position and pointedly criticized senator mccarthy, it had a real it had a real impact, but it was not by any means the only you know, the only instance where where senator mccarthy was criticized. and it was only part of what led to his downfall. again, the mccarthy hearings, the initial mccarthy hearings, looking for communists in the government lasted from february of 53 through march 10th of 1954. on march 16th. a second set of mccarthy hearings began jim townsend. what were those? well, there had senator mccarthy had begun to make allegations against the u.s. military and the army in particular, and a facility in a signal corps facility at fort monmouth. you'd started to assert that there were communists who had

infiltrated that facility, in particular. and he, in the course of doing so, was really starting to come into conflict with not only the us army, but the eisenhower administration. in a republican administration, of course. and this started to raise a lot of concern because of the way that senator mccarthy was behaving. his behavior was becoming increasingly erratic and his staff, particularly roy cohn and another staff member named david shine, were, you know, getting into more and more controversy. and ultimately, what happened was that some of senator mccarthy's opponents started to raise the question of why these young lawyers, because at the time there was a draft, why these two young lawyers, cohn and shyne, had not been themselves drafted into the military.

well, it turned out that david child was then drafted and a big controversy erupted around that, which was that senator mccarthy asserted that because shyne was a lawyer, he should be given a an officer commission and then designated just to return to the senate, returning to the committee and serve and continue his role as an investigator. the u.s. army refused to do that, and they enlisted him as a private in the in the army. and and again, there were back and forth allegations of improper conduct and despite reached really ahead in 1954, when at that point the politics started to shift, the democrats had made some progress and were only one seat short of of of of ending the republican control of the senate. and so when it came time to get

funding for this permanent subcommittee and investigations in 1954, the the democrats pushed back and they insisted that they be able to hire their own staff. and ironically, they hired robert kennedy to come back and be their counsel. and they also, over time, insisted that there be an investigation into the facts of this conflict between senator mccarthy and the army and that investigation ensued. and as part of it, they basically forced senator mccarthy to give up his chairmanship of the full committee and of the permanent subcommittee on investigations, because they knew, obviously, that somebody chairing an investigative committee could be the subject of that investigation. so mccarthy stepped aside and the investigation or moved forward and he then became a

witness in the proceedings. and we can talk more about some of the hearings and the way that all played out. and again, the mccarthy communists in government hearings, 1953 to march of 1954, the army mccarthy hearings investigation of senator mccarthy for his attacks on the army began six days later, on march six, 18th carl month. the republican from south dakota chaired it. the other republicans, henry dwarf shack of idaho, everett dirksen again of illinois. charles potter again of michigan. john mcclellan, henry jackson and stewart symington were the three democrats on the committee. about 35 days of sessions, 20 million people were able to view this on tv. what was the result of these hearings? well, the result of one key result of the hearings was that

mccarthy, again, no longer a member of the committee or in this case, this subcommittee. he now a witness was still very, very present in these in these hearings. and what he tried to do and did quite effectively. but ultimately to his own, you know, due to his own undoing, is he started he started intervening and interrupting the proceedings and dominant and trying to dominate them. and he kept doing something. he kept raising what he called a point of order in order to interrupt the line of questioning that was taking place or to try to grab control of these of these hearings. and he did it so many times that the the phrase point of order became kind of a what we would call a mean almost today, became sort of a saying that got into the popular vernacular. what it really revealed, though, was his own excesses, his is

dishonesty, his his aggression is really just disrespect for our institutions and his lack of regard for honest fact finding. what this was really in contrast to what he was able to get away with when he chaired the committees, when he chaired the investigatnd particularly when he could operate in closed sessions and and then lie basically mislead people about the results of those sessions. when he was in a televised format and not controlling the proceedings, his his became much clearer and with millions and millions of americans watching on live television or watching recorded replays of these hearings, it started to lay bare just how extreme and how unethical he was had senator

mccarthy, by the end of the first round of hearings and into the second. lost his credibility with the american public and with then president eisenhower and the republicans in congress. it was certainly beginning to happen, essentially, joe mccarthy did not wear well on television. you know, the more he was exposed, the more people could witness the way he operated and the way he would bully other people the way he was. it was so it became more and more clear that that really getting to the bottom of the issue, finding the facts was really not in his primary objective, but making accusations and bullying and scaring the public was really more his goal. the more that became evident really the first round of hearings and really throughout the whole proceeding of the lower his support fell. well, here's a bit from the 1954

army mccarthy hearings, but your. forgive. will have to come from somewhere other. the. chairman of that, mr. wells, talks about being cruel and reckless. he would do anything he has. and they hang on here for hours requesting time before sundown, get out of any department of the government. anyone who was serving the communist. no, i just give the record and i want to say, mr. welch, the it has been labeled long before he

became a member of as early as 1944. and we know is, you know, he belonged in school. mr. cohen didn't have that need. i did, i think. no lingering mr. cold was. i learned to do, you know, first degree. and if i did, i beg your pardon. let us not if something is mad, but look, you've done enough. everyone know sam of decency, sir. as last have you left? no sense of decency. i know the first few, mr. welch. a point of personal privacy. i'd like to finish this, senator. i think it hurt you to with. i know i'm going to rather not have to go to the. i can do whatever. and mr. mr. welch talked about

any sense of decency. it seems that mr. welch his pain was so deep, he thinks that is improper for me to give the record the communist broke records of the man whom he wanted to foist upon this committee, but it doesn't blame him at all. there's no pain in his chest about the attempt to destroy the reputation and and they take the jobs away from the young men who are working in my committee. and mr. well, if if i have heard anything here, which is untrue, then tell me i have heard you and everyone else thought so much about lying. the truth that one look payable. but when i heard the complete reporting mr. i was being out for a long time. the thing now before on down you must get these people out of

government and we're back on congress investigates with jim townsend, who is the director of the levin center for oversight and democracy. mr. townsend joseph welch became quite well known. who was he? he was an attorney who was serving as counsel to the u.s. army during this investigation. and he became very well known because of his really steadfast resistance to the bullying and to the maneuvers that senator mccarthy was trying to engage in during during the investigation and particularly during those hearings, what became of senator mccarthy after he was first elected in 46, probably reelected in 52, did he get reelect? did in 58? no. he did not. but let me back up and say one thing about about welch, because it does bear on sort of what ultimately happened to senator

mccarthy joseph welch. you know, in a hearing in 1954, kind of in the middle of these and was in june of 54, was engaging in a in a in a colloquy basically with senator mccarthy, who was trying to again, so doubt about the people in the u.s. army and about the position the army was taking by by suggesting that one of the attorneys, a young attorney, had had associations wit communism. that attorney was taken off the investigation, which was obviously damaging his career. and joseph welch stood up for that, that young, young attorney, and said, you know, senator mccarthy, you know, i've seen you in action and, you know, you just have have have basically left no decency. have you no decency, sir? but to drag a young attorney who was not implicated any of this

through the mud publicly and a like the murrow, you know, the commentary very edward r murrow provided this moment on live television where a very credible, more experienced lawyer stood up to joe mccarthy. if sending really an innocent person, it just threw into high relief the bullying and abuse that mccarthy had been engaging in for years now. in 2003, some previously classified documents related to the mccarthy hearings were released. here's republican senator susan collins from maine. these transco ships have been sealed. for more for almost 50 years. they shed new light on a shameful chapter in american history at a time when hundreds of innocent people were paraded before a senate subcommittee

with little regard for due process or their consent to to personal rights, a time when character assassination and mudslinging and by association trumped the truth and fairness. this was the time when be lying to a great book club where you may have read karl marx, among many other authors, is could make you suspect in the eyes of senator mccarthy in this very room, this historic senate caucus room. senator mccarthy held numerous sensationalist hearings, including the infamous army mccarthy hearings. he questioned witness this not only about their own possible affiliations with the communist party, but also grilled them about their friends and families, their coworkers and

their neighbors. senator mccarthy's subpoenaed famous composers and writers such as aaron copeland and dashiell hammett, journalists such as james reston and numerous actors and actors aces. but many indeed most of the witnesses were low level government employees from the state department. voice of america. the u.s. overseas libraries, the government printing office, and the army. while senator mccarthy informed witnesses of their constitutional right to decline to answer a question, he interpreted any refusal to do so as an admission guilt. as he lectured one witness, a communist and an espionage agent has the right to refuse on those grounds. he also encouraged government agencies and private corporations to fire anyone who invoked his or her fifth amendment right.

he threatened witnesses with contempt and in cursory fashion, and that was senator collins from the c-span video archives. jim townsend of the levin center. what's the significance of those documents? well, there is a law that keeps the internal documents, congressional investigations under seal for 50 years. and. in 2004, when 50 years had passed, since those those hearings and since those investigations, this was an opportunity to unseal and see the full record of what had occurred during the mccarthy era and it was awfully important to see a bipartisan group of senators in this case in particular, susan collins, republican of maine, and carl levin, a democrat of michigan, jointly releasing all these records, and collins in

particular as a republican making an unequivocal statement about mccarthy, condemn his behavior, condemning his tactics and and really calling out that sort of abuse of the oversight power. so it was quite significant. and now, you know, we understand. the era better, much now than we did before this was released. and another from maine back in 1950, margaret chase smith spoke out against joseph mccarthy. and this is what she had to say. here's a portion of her speech from 1950. i think it is high time that we remember that we have sworn to uphold and defend the constitution. i think that it is high time that we remember that the constitution as amended, speaks not only of the freedom of speech, but also of trial by jury instead of trial by accusation, whether it be a criminal prosecution in court or a character prosecution in the

senate. there is little practical distinction when the life of person has been ruined. so senator mccarthy did not have universal support necessarily among republicans, is that correct? that is certainly correct. and senator chase smith really deserves credit. she was the only woman in the u.s. senate at the time. and she courageously up and opposed mccarthy when he was really ascending in his in his power and influence. and, you know what she pointed out was was really something that's awfully potent. and we should we we very much need to remember now. and that is that the the congress has and should have extraordinary power to gather facts. the supreme court has recognized this and rightly has upheld an

increase in litigation, upheld congress's power to obtain information to issue subpoenas, to compel people to provide information. but with that power, a tremendous amount of responsibility. and what what senator chase smith was was saying in 1950 is that she could already it was clear that mccarthy was on a path to abusing that power, doing great damage. and it's a shame that, you know, at the time and this was 1950, so it was before senator mccarthy had a majority, you know, and was running subcommittee at the time, though, in 1950, only six other republicans joined her in issuing a declaration and criticizing what mccarthy was doing. had she had more support? i think mccarthy might have gotten sidetracked and not had had the platform and support he ultimately had and allowed him to do so much damage. so back to the mccarthy

timeline. what happened to senator mccarthy after the 1954 army? mccarthy hearings? well, after those hearings, his standing in the country and his respect and standing among his colleagues in the senate fell precipitously and something occurred that is that has never occurred previously. and that was articles of, you know, a measure, a resolution was introduced in the senate to censure senator mccarthy. there was a panel put together to to look into his behavior and to basically provide a, you know, factual predicate for considering a resolution to censure him. that took that investigation it occurred in the in the summer and fall of 1954 and then a vote was held on december 2nd, 1954. and by a vote of 67 to 22 of the

senate censured senator mccarthy. so that was a a dramatic blow to his to his standing. he you know, was was never again chaired a committee in the senate and following that 1954 until his death in 1957, he really became an insignificant member of the senate. no longer was he sort of the darling of the media as somebody who was, you know, often being quoted and seen as a powerful member of the senate. he lost all of that power and ultimately he died while in office in 1957. he died young. do we know what he died of? well, he died of habit. the cause of death was listed as hepatitis. and there is some evidence you

know, certainly people who examined this. have found that that he was abusing alcohol a great deal as those years as his standing fell and as he, you know, kind of wallowed in in his fate, his drinking apparently increased great deal. and that may have led to damage to his liver that ultimately took his life. well, we've seen and talked about joe welch joseph welch, the army lawyer here, senator sheldon whitehouse, democrat of rhode island. talking about his legacy. very often indeed. too often, political outcomes in washington are determined by the political weight and the wealth of contests and forces vying for power. it is brute force against brute

force. and it makes you wonder, is that all there is to this? is this just an arena of combat where huge special interests lean against each other, trying to shove each other around each for their own greed and benefit? well, this 60 years ago is an eternal lesson of what a difference one person can make a regular american a. nobody in washington good at his craft, good in his character. and in the right place at the right time. a man who knew what was right

broke the fever of virulent political frenzy that had captured washington. one private lawyer's sincere direct outrage at a cruel attack on his young associate. a few words from a boston lawyer who had just had enough turned the tide of history. madam president, may we never forget in this world of vast and often corrupt political forces, the power of one person to make a difference. and that was senator sheldon whitehouse, democrat of rhode island, jim townsend did the mccarthy hearings on communist? did they accomplish anything, in

your view? they really accomplished very little at all when it comes to their stated goal, which was to find communists. no evidence of communist infiltration to root out communists, spying and infiltration. if anything, they got in the way because they diverted a lot of energy and a lot of attention away from investigations that might have found what were some of instances of infiltration. high levels of of the us government. so very little was accomplished by by the investigations themselves. probably the only good that really you can say came out of the whole episode was that the primary subcommittee committee on investigations adopted some reforms so that abuses of the kind that senator mccarthy engaged in would be much harder to engage in in the future.

so things like requiring that, both the majority and the minority have a significant role in determining what investigations ought to be pursued, giving the minority the opportunity to hire its own staff were ensuring that there is no miss and full opportunity for participation for both the majority and the minority. these were all things that senator mccarthy denied his counterparts in the democratic party who were in the minority when he was in power and and because he did that, he was able to to want to do a lot of damage and abuse that, again, as i mentioned, that power of congress to investigate. so so a good a good outcome from i guess is that some lessons were learned and some reforms were instituted and those reforms in the department of subcommittee on investigations continue to operate. and the subcommittee has performed admirably over the

decades under both republican and democrat leaders. i think as a result. now, we've been talking the senate investigation, the senate permanent, the committee on investigations, but what about the house? was the house committee on un-american activities still active during this period or had it disbanded? it was still operating, but it ran out of steam, too. i mean, the issue of the red scare, if you will, just sort of ran out of of support. one of the things that made it difficult on both mccarthy and uec leaders is they were running into the eisenhower administration. you know, they were raising all these concerns about communist infiltration of the government. most of the people raising these concerns, not all, but most were

republican. and here they were raising those concerns about a sitting republican administration and an and a president who now, let's face it, president eisenhower was a war hero. he was somebody who was revered for his leadership of the armed forces of the united states in world war two. and so calling out his administration for being soft on, you know, on communism or totalitarianism, being, you know, sort out and not able to defend the country, just didn't ring. very true. and it also caused the eisenhower administration to work work hard to, you know, kind of counteract those efforts. a lot of people really think that a big part of what brought senator mccarthy down. sure was edward r murrow. it was joseph welch. margaret, you know, senator chase smith set the sort set the

predicate for it. but it was also the eisenhower administration itself because it encouraged republican senators and republicans in the political system to to question and then counter in oppose. senator mccarthy. had they not done that, i think he would have been stronger and he would have been able to stay in power longer. well, jim townsend, your center is named after pretty well-known congressional investigator, senator carl levin. what kind of work did he do? and what about the levin center? well, senator levin was the longest serving senator from the state of michigan. he served six terms, 36 years and he did many, many things. but one of the things he was really focused on was doing good oversight and making sure that those lessons learned from the mccarthy era, the lessons about the importance of a bipartisan

investigation, of investigations that are truly committed to finding the facts. he took those lessons to heart. and when he came to the senate in 1979, he really made it his mission to to do everything he could to try to investigate corruption, malfeasance. and just really the performance of government, because he believed in government leave, the government had an important role to play in solving problems and in helping people. but he was concerned that the government, the administrative state that had grown up in the in the aftermath of the new deal and certainly after the great society, that it was not as effective it needed to be. and the government had not really continue to do the job it needed to do. and so he he jumped at the chance to serve on the government affairs committee and to be on this permanent

subcommittee on investigations. and he he was chair and ranking member of it for the better part, two decades. he also was chair of the armed services committee, and he devoted a lot of effort not only to supporting our troops and making sure they were well equipped and supported, but also making sure that the military, both the you know, the public and the u.s. government, but private contractors were accountable for the work they did. and so he mounted numerous investigations of both government agencies, but but also private entities, banks, utilities, defense contractors, credit card companies, investment banks, all of these entities that that are regulated by the government need to be regulated in many cases when they escape scrutiny can do things that really damage the

public. and so he wanted to bring those facts to and drive reform. so the levin center is all about trying to carry on his legacy. jim townsend, director of the levin center, thanks for being part of our congress investigates series. thank you, peter. this is a great opportunity to elevate something we think is really important, and that is the power of congress and responsible party. congress has to be the eyes and voice of the