it is really a pleasure to have craig here and his family. zirin it's great to see you. and we children and

grandchildren if you hear wonderful applause, perhaps not the right moment, that's just a great sound of a granddaughter enjoying her grandfather. so let's celebrate that, too. so please join me in welcoming and our director of scholarly initiatives, dr. anthony aims to lead the conversation here today on his new book, the search for reagan the appealing intellectual conservatism of ronald reagan. and his. thanks group. thank you. thank all right. well, this is good fun. yes. and before i even get started on my questions, you all heard my boss. just give me a task. you you met ronald reagan in 1978. we have to hear about that. have to learn more about your first interaction with reagan. so i guess sure. i was a 21 year old snot nose

kid. i was press secretary for a us senate candidate in new hampshire. but then gordon humphrey and i was the actually sixth campaign manager or the sixth president was hired by the campaign. but i lasted actually a year and a half with him. but in october, the reagan came up to new hampshire to campaign for the then governor, mel thompson, and for cut commercials for gordon. for gordon humphrey, who was then by that time was a republican. so he came there was in concord, there was an old, wonderful old hotel called the new hampshire highway hotel. and it was always the same seat of political activity. it was just it was wonderful. it had restaurants and bars and all sorts of things. and reagan came there. we met there. the cuts that you cut, the commercials. and he came two aides and i don't remember who i was probably, mike deaver and peter hannaford, one of them, anyway,

but they immediately disappeared. and reagan came early. so he and sat down in the lobby and we talked for 20 minutes. and of course, i had nothing offer this man. i had there's nothing i could do for him. and he was utterly, utterly and funny and wonderful all the way. he was the way you imagine him is exactly the way was was just a self-confident charming, wonderful man. and we talked about high school and college sports because he played him, of course, and i did, too. and then we talked about winter. we talked about the snow in new hampshire. he didn't like the cold. neither do i. so we just had this lovely conversation, which is which is, you know, a great memory for me. and then he cut the commercials. he did one take. he read the script is a 62nd commercial that i wrote. and he looked at like this and he says, okay, and he cuts commercial. one take just just right.

and then he was gone. and then i didn't i met him again many times when he was president or when sareen was running c pac and reagan was always the featured speaker at cpac. so i met him many times. there. and then of, you know, i was just a munchkin. i was not an important person at all. i was just a little dweeb but but he was terrific. and i remember after the presidency going out to to not see me, where was his office, century city and his training century and seeing him out there. and he was just great. he was terrific. but you know, ira, interestingly, probably one of the last people to ever see him before he won seclusion because the alzheimer's had been announced about two years earlier, was strange she went out, she was seven months pregnant and out to wash out century city to meet reagan.

and he was terrific. he was conversational. he was bond, he was friendly. but the interesting thing is, is that policy is really seven months pregnant. you have to hear and they they had policies that the president did not say in pictures for people who weren't in the picture. so i thought, oh, this is ridiculous. i wanted it signed to serene and to natural our our fourth or fourth. mitchell's here today. mitchell's here. yeah. and so i called mike and i said, mike, can you help me with mike? mike, mike, mike reagan, can you help me with this? he said, i'll take care of it. so two weeks later, i got the picture from, you know, two serene and mitchell, shirley with best wishes. ronald reagan. that's a nice memory. you know, i think it sounds like he got his return on investment right? yeah. 20 of their meeting with the 21 year old d dweeb turned into. but by my count, six books on ronald reagan. yes, that's right. and of course, the last one here is searching for ronald reagan. and i think you've probably

found him by now. so what i want to know is what's what's new and what's new. you clearly felt there was more to say about ronald reagan? you know several years ago actually a, long time ago, i went to a book presentation. my old friend doug brinkley, and he had done he had edited reagan diaries because mrs. reagan, him on television liked him. he out to meet with her and she hired him. the labor hired him, then the reagan diaries. and so jerry and i went to a presentation. he giving and he said at that time he talked about my new book, which was about the 76 reagan campaign. and he says, you know, the reagan scholarship is just beginning to open up. there are so many interest aspects to this man. you he had six successful careers. he was a prolific letter writer and prolific reader and he was active in so many things happened because of ronald reagan was, you know, i can't

think of the name of the author but he wrote a book about the essential man. i'll think of it a second, but he wrote making man and reagan oh, the hero in history by sidney hooks. and he wrote he wrote about the event making man and reagan fit that description to a t he you we're in the room with him many times and i remember talking to an old friend of mine, paul corbin, who worked john kennedy and we were at lunch one time and i said, you know, the room changes when reagan walks in. i mean, it's just electricity. he tips the field and he said, you know, it was the same thing with john kennedy when he walked into a room, there was just electricity in the room. it just changed the dynamics of everything, well, it was dynamics. i liked that word because one of the things and you have the chance to read this book because of course, craig will be signing these books after our conversation here today. but the big theme, this book

that comes out time and time again, that reagan has a dynamic mind. yes, it's very to me in your work. yes, i want to know about how did you come to see dynamic mind? what are the sources that dynamism, you know, anthony, most men and women, but men mostly reach a point in their life where their ideas become settled about 40 years of age. their view of the world doesn't change. that's your life. that's not true. is reagan. reagan adopted many of his issues after he was 40. you know, whole idea of tax cuts and remember, once at cpac, where a group of us were talking with him at the reception before the dinner and he said, you know, these tax cuts that i'm pushing and i'm proposing are. yeah, they're going to help the economy and they're going to help stimulate the all this other stuff, he said. but really it's about empowering. i don't think, to use the word empowering, but he said spending power back to the individual. and he was right. he was right. i mean, this is this this

requires a lot of intellect because. he knew that power cannot created or destroyed. it can only be around. and so the time of the new deal up until the reagan presidency, power had been steadily moving from the american people to washington because of regulation, tax policy, even sometimes speech policy, as we had world war two. so this power was always was was coming all washington and reagan wanted to stop that and go back to where the framers and founders were, which is to return to the states. look out is and ultimately the individual you know that's a that's the thing is that you read his speeches especially his presence how many times he talks the rights and privileges, privacy and dignity of the individual. well, there's a number of instances in this book that clearly cover new ground and rather than cover greatest hits right, we all know reagan won the cold war. we to hear that we like to hear

that story over and. i'm glad you said one. and now we go. but rather than cover the greatest hits, i want to get into some of the lesser known stories about reagan. although i do want to hear some jokes. okay. i want to get into some of the known stories about reagan. okay one of the early stories you cover, some of the greatest hits, right reagan was president of the screen actors guild, right? lesser known in that that he actually led a strike in hollywood. how do you get from leading a strike in hollywood to a strike in the 1980s with the air traffic controllers? and what's the journey there? i mean, what what is the i don't know. it is so much of a journey because reagan studied reagan has to realize he was always a revolutionary. he was all of his ideas tax cuts, sdi enterprise zones. it was all new thinking it was all new thinking that introduced to washington and to national political debate and think that he the strike actually is in

with his thinking from the fifties forties up until the eighties which is to challenge exist authority right and we came to washington that's all we did was challenge existing authority was that there was a status quo here that didn't like reagan same all like is that because they challenge it they question it and and the powers that be in washington don't like to be questioned so i don't see i think it's pretty unbroken line from leading the strike in the forties to his so challenging the status quo. this is a good way of looking at reagan and one of the ways he challenges the status as you point out is his nomination of sandra day to the supreme court. sure. at the time, it's lambasted in kind of more liberal press as being a cynical, you know approach to trying to capture women voters. you have something a little more to say about that nomination, about their kind of background

coming together. and she really makes for reagan in a number of ways, hugh, in the 1980 campaign, you know, usually just you'd silly political stunts, but in the 1980 campaign, about october, mid-october or -- werth, one who was his pollster for all those years for governor and president, wonderful guy said, look, we're not doing well, women and we need to do something so. they put out a press release, you know, saying, is that reagan would concede. i don't think he actually cornered himself, but he he would consider a woman for the first appointment if he's president the supreme court and lo and behold, a year later, he's elected. and then it's june, i think, is that the white house smart about this instead of just the pander and saying, okay, we got a woman here, they actually floated three or four names and she was among three men. so that white house could say, look, we picked most qualified individual, not the most

qualified woman, but the most qualified individual. and they were right. and it worked. and you they obviously know they had similar backgrounds was from a ranch, a very very rural ranch in arizona, and they didn't have running water. she grew fixing farm equipment and tending cattle and things like that. and so, of course, reagan, you know, with his work at the ranch and things like that so there was always a kind of a mutual affection for each other. you know, she was always, always, you know, praise, obviously, of reagan, not overjoyed were reaganesque, but she was good justice. she was good honorable justice. and this is a, you know, we are, um just cover the sandra day o'connor piece in the book and you keep on moving in this book through periods of administration of reagan's political career. but again, i don't want to say we forget but that aren't as widely known. yes.

and one of those periods one of those moments is reagan's decision. mlk day. yes. probably taking a surprise by some of people. some of the comment, the political at the time that reagan's the one who actually authorized this mlk day as a holiday you have a lot new to say on reagan's relationship to black america specifically on the mlk day piece. can you tell me a little more about that. it when pose 20 years ever since his assassination that there'd be national holiday and really fight came down to should we give a paid holiday another paid holiday to federal workers because you know they're not going to be working we're paying them it's going to cost a lot of money. there was a lot objection based on that and then there were other objections on various issues. but reagan was very, very you know, he thought it was

important. he thought it was important symbolically and substantively did he do this? it passed it when he introduced it pass, you know, one of his biggest allies to getting it passed in the house was newt gingrich. i mean, newt really fought hard. newt knew at the time even playing the race card used point out fact. he said that, you know, there are all these statues and busts in the capitol, not one african-american. you we need we need to rectify that. we need to the contributions of mlk. and again, i think that i think that reagan and mlk would got along very, very well because again he was a revolutionary. he was challenging the status quo. and, you know, a friend, wise friend of mine once said that that quote told me that king's said that in the sixties. he said, the problem with the south is they don't recognize that a black man's park is just as green as a white man's book. but i remember at the time my political mentor, arthur finkelstein, was actually arguing with his client, senator

jesse helms, from north carolina, and saying, look, you got stop your opposition. you got to support this. you and and and and the answer from, helms was no. you associated with communist sympathizers. so i'm not going to change. i'm back. i changed. so arthur came out of the meeting without convincing helms and said to his aide, john, he says, you really got to be a radical and not want to pay day off. well, we've started to talk about congress and we've talked about some of the true conservatives in congress. helms, gingrich, but reagan is probably best known for working with people who aren't true conservatives in congress. and that kind of space of his legacy. what usually talk about when we talk about tip o'neill, speaker o'neill and ronald reagan, it usually is. they were political enemies,

personal friends. know, you to kind of in see invert that yeah yeah you seem to kind invert that so let me hear your inversion here. is that a myth that's been promulgated in washington for many, many years and spun by people like chris matthews, who wrote that book tipping the gipper, which really wasn't very good, is that they were great friends. they were they'd knock off at 5:00 and go to a bar and drink beer and stuff. is that true? is that true? is that that in his autobiography, man of the house, tip o'neill, devoted the entire chapter to how much he hated reagan. he said it's the worst president i've ever seen in my life. nancy, the queen of beverly hills. bah, bah, bah bah. he went on at length. how much liked reagan, how much he disliked reagan. so it's just a myth. they only together really on two deals. and one of them, reagan, they worked together on social security reform, which was successful and which was still enjoying the benefits today.

and tougher, which was a tax increase. the fall of 1982. and reagan that probably cost the republicans many seats in the governor november i, i was out i was working for the republican national committee then and i was out in colorado helping to campaign. i get a call from my boss. i'll tell you his name cost me. he says reagan just passed tougher the tax you got to tell your clients to put out a press releases praising the president and i said you want me to tell them praise him for raising taxes. you have three heads. you know it's of course i didn't tell anybody to do that. and of course, gingrich the revolutionary delayed tephra for many, many days. and then finally hundred house members, 104 house members voted against it. and they're all conservatives. they're really based on principle. and reagan regretted that tax increase for the rest his life. because you know why tip o'neill

broke his word? is that tougher? the deal between reagan and tatra supposed to be $1 for tax raises in, exchange for $3 in tax cuts. there was a tax increase, but there were never the tax. there was tax cut. there was a tax. there was never the tax cuts that came tip o'neill. there were never the budget cuts. well, let's dive into this point about taxes. yes. okay. so we weren't going to cover greatest hits, but i guess we'll cover a few of the greatest hits. but in the book, you write about reagan's campaign, the governorship. yes, california course. and he campaigns on lowering taxes, as you would expect ronald reagan, to campaign on. and the first thing he does in office is raise taxes. so bring us into that episode of the book it showed i'll defend reagan of course always defend reagan and show this flexibility of thinking when he ran for governor he did not realize how bad the situation was in

sacramento, how the budget was losing $1,000,000 a day, which, you know, the government, that's just chump change, right. but in 1966, it was a lot of money and they were losing it every day. and they also had a $500 million deficit. and reagan came in was told by meese and others said governor, we've got a serious problem on our hands. so he met with jesse unruh is then the speaker of the house who is a very powerful democrat out there very famous. and unruh was urged to run for office. and he said he said means i'm going to have to give up drinking and women and he also said it was funny guy he also said if you can't take their money you can't take their money and. and drink their liquor and sleep with their women, you shouldn't be in politics. okay all right. but anyway.

so, you know, reagan had had to had to go for a tax increase to cover the shortfall. and i remember telling he told reporters that my were set in concrete, but the sound you're hearing is the sound of my feet cracking the cement cracking. so he did end up with a surplus. and what he did with the surplus, unlike what happens here in washington, all that spending on new program. let's go to a new agency. he gave a rebate to the taxpayers of california, so it ended up that he balanced the budget. he reduced spending, welfare was out of control and he reformed welfare out there. so actually, the poor and indigent were really getting assistance and not fraudulent people. so he ended up fixing all of it and giving a rebate to the california taxpayers. everybody's happy. so i think what we'll do here. so i want to ask one more of those questions about reagan and the reagan we don't hear a lot

about right. and then i want to hear a few reagan jokes. then we have of kind of admiring in the audience, you can use this. no, no, thanks. plenty of admiring faces in the audience. people who are curious about about ronald reagan, they don't know. so we'll turn it over to q&a. but one of those issues that you really seem to want to spot like, because much of this book you see, you seem to be writing a corrective that very much is actually right. reagan the individuals who chronicle reagan get wrong and you really want to get it right. yes. in one of those episodes that, you you see as other people getting wrong is the aids crisis. uh, uh, and reagan's response to the aids crisis. you have a whole chapter on it. this isn't just this isn't just a little footnote. this is this is a big focus of. the book. yeah. so i think it's a good time for

you to kind of focus on this in the talking and, napoleon once said history is a pack, lies, pack of lies agreed upon. right. and there was pack of lies about reagan and aids that been promulgated by his political enemies that he ignored gay men. he ignored the aids crisis. he let millions of gay men die, blah, blah but it was all a lie. was all a lie. gates. i mean, aids didn't really become an issue the early eighties. and before that it was sort oc hemophiliacs and haitians get aids and was only later in the i'd say 81, 80 to 83 that people came to realize who was really was affecting now the government at the time telling them to you know, telling homosexuals gay men to practice safe sex but they had cure. but by five, he was already talking about it in his state of the union address in 86, he talked to extent of the about the issue and he had the government commit billions of dollars to aids. you know, starting in 85.

so the idea that he ignored or somehow wanted to die was is a lie. it's a it's a mean spirited lie. it's not true. and it goes back to his time in california. reagan believed fervently in the rights of the individual, the dignity and privacy of the individual. and there was that can 78. now, this shows his courage because you're getting ready to run for president again. and a lot of conservative, pro-family pro-life for a different amalgamation groups were supporting what was as proposition six, which was in the summer of 78, was to pass all the polling, had it way ahead and it was it was a bill that said gay men can out the closet, cannot teach in public schools and people can't advocate the gay lifestyle of public schools. and it was gaining steam across the country. it started anita bryant in dade county and then passed in

minnesota and in kansas and passed in several townships and in california. and there was this now this national or the state proposal that was on the ballot. now reagan needed the support of these pro-family going into the 80 election, but he a very courageous stance which he came out against proposition six. he campaigned against say he wrote editorials against it. he believed fervently in the individual. he was offended his sensibility is his intellect. right. and he campaigned against it and it was ahead in summer. but by november, down to a crashing defeat. i think it lost 57 or 43 or something. and everybody, a lot of gay activists said, the only reason this was defeated because ronald reagan now, okay, we've we've covered some heavy topics, right? reagan dealt with some heavy issues. right. and he always seemed to deal with these heavy issues with adding the right bit of levity

at right moment. and don't think there's any good reagan biographer that doesn't have at least, what, five good reagan. yeah, yeah. so give us a few of those. the legion, the had just a natural sense of humor, knows about, you know, there you go again. and i will not make an of my opponent's youth and experience but i remember in 19 the 1960s when he was out in california was the height of the vietnam war. and the free speech movement and hippies and all this. and he's on an airplane someplace, i don't know where in sacramento or stanford someplace. but anyway, this hippie confronting him is when lyn nofziger, his old friend, my old friend, and he's when lyn because lyn told me the story and this smelly, dirty disheveled hippie. maybe it was joe biden. i don't know. anyway, this hippie was carrying a sign it said make love, not war. reagan looked at the sign, looked the hippie turned to lyn and says, you know, from the

looks at him, i don't think you do either. and then then then. mike deaver told me this. god bless him. it was a couple of years after the assassination attempt. and there the reagan's on air force one. and mike was and everybody who ever worked for will know about this, about the flat suit. in fact, think it's on exhibit at the reagan library. reagan loved the and everybody hated it. everybody hated fact. george will once wrote a column about the white suit, a fashion revolution. yeah, yeah, right. exactly. anyway, there on this campaign swing and reagan was in a sweat pants. but he is. he always did when. he was on the plane, but he's getting ready to put on the purple plaid suit. and mrs. reagan starts in. oh, ronnie, i hate that thing. please wear that thing. that's ugly. that's too bad blah, blah, blah. and finally, she tries to deaver, she says, like mike, mike, help me, please. and deaver says, no, i'm not to

talk to him about the suit. i'm sick of talking him about the -- suit and so mrs. reagan turns to mike and says, now, this is one of the several years after the assassination attempt reagan recovered. mrs. reagan turns to mike and says oh yeah, mike, tell the president what the staff about his suit. and reagan looks at davis says, what did the staff say about my suit? deaver says, president, the staff says, if you're going to be shot. why couldn't you have been shot wearing? that suit? well, i feel deaver in that regard, that's a public position to be put in. yeah. yeah. one other one other thing. one of the story i got this from rich little out las vegas several years ago when i went to do fundraiser for the party. and he told me he entertained at the white three or four times while the reagans were there. terrific guy. very nice guy. and he after he entertained you sitting at the table with the

reagans just the three of them. reagan says to little says you know i do impressions and now mrs. reagan is rolling her eyes. oh, here we go, you know. and rick says, mr. brady, i'd like to hear your impressions. she says, well, i do, john wayne. i said, you let me hear it. so strong john wayne says, well, pilgrim i call for you yesterday. you showed up today. and of course, it sounds like reagan doing wayne doesn't sound like john wayne. and mrs. reagan's kicking reagan under the table. stop, stop stop. and. and then reagan. well, i also do what jimmy stewart? and of course, it sounds like reagan doing jimmy stewart right now. everybody's everybody's sick of it. right? and then finally, look and i also do truman capote. and so richardson triggered let me hear you. truman capote. you ringo's all out. oh, you know, and rich says, mr. president, it's pretty good. but you don't have a material.

and reagan's says, well, do you have any ideas? so, rich down the cocktail answer to. reagan. reagan looks at his eyes right up the reads. he says, well, they said, i wrote in cold, but actually i wrote in ink ink. well, we could go on with more of these great stories, anecdotes. i mean, anyone who worked with reagan certainly has a few of them. yes. and i know we have a few veterans, the administration in the audience today that. hopefully, we'll get to hear from them, too. but please, let's fielding some questions from the. and i'm sure there's inquiring minds and about. i believe maggie or my wonderful colleague will bring over a mic so if you just raise your hand i think we have one over here and. one over there. it looks like mikey my also wonderful colleague, mike, came back here on mikes here. okay. i'm of curious about whether to what degree barry goldwater

might have influenced ronald reagan's conservative thinking. i was, a freshman in college in 1964 and new york, of all places, with a barry goldwater sticker on my briefcase. and i think was when i first became interested in, ronald reagan, because i thought his speeches in favor of goldwater's. and i thought your comments about privacy and stuff resonate it with what my view was on some of the strengths that goldwater had and it seems to me lately republicans seem to want to run away from some of their candidates and perhaps barry goldwater is not somebody that people to associate reagan with. but i do. you're right curious. you're right in his thinking heavily influenced reagan. i know reagan read goldwater's

books. they say one thing, which is that goldwater was not a fan. reagan personally, because he was jealous him because reagan was a successful popular politician. and of course, goldwater went down to a crashing defeat in 64. so it's always kind of that that tension between the two. on the other, mostly on goldwater, in fact on goldwater's part, not in reagan's part. reagan was always laudatory, always kind, always thoughtful about goldwater. and of course, he gave the famous speech in 64, the speech which raised millions of dollars for the goldwater campaign and launched reagan's political career because. it shows it got that he was already that speech around southern california. but never given it nationally until he gave it on nbc that night in october 64. and then everybody flooded to him and what became known as the kitchen cabinet cabinet, all thing bloomingdale al and

several other men who were part of his kitchen cabinet came in and said, you know, first you got to run for congress. and it wasn't reagan. running for the senate was not for reagan. reagan viewed himself as leader. he was president. screen actors. he was leading public intellectual. he governor suited him president suited him because it was not he was an executive, not a member of a legislature. and i'll tell you one story. many years ago when i was interning in the us senate, ironically for jacob javits, who was actually then you remember, was a liberal republican senator from new york and he my only pet. you remember javits from new york? he they were throwing stuff at people who were for chipman and well my parents were very, very active in the new york state conservative party. and they always had with every kids out passing out brochures

and going to polling place do all that stuff. and in 64, when i was eight years old, i was going to door for goldwater, handing literature and many years later when i was interning in the senate for who ironically was, one of the reasons why the new york state conservative was formed because of their revulsion toward javits and rockefeller and ken keating and others. and i was i was was it was an russell senate office building. and i had to take a message, the senator over the senate floor, and i'm running down a flight of stairs. i can't do it anymore. and i go pass a limping elderly man look from behind. and i said, i know that guy. i know that guy i turn around barry goldwater is all by himself. so i go up to him. of course, you know, again, 19 years old. and as you know, breathlessly, you know, senator, my name is craig shirley and to syracuse, new york, in 1964, i went door to door you passing out literature. he looked at me and says, i bet

you got a lot of doors slammed in your face. all right. well, we have a few more questions. you know, i will say this. i always wonder myself, if goldwater had in 64, reagan had won in 80. interesting. kind of. he will once said the 64 campaign was won in 1980, which i thought was very profound statement is that is that they had to correct goldwater the correct ideas. reagan had the correct ideas. the country wasn't ready for them in 64, but was ready for them in 1980. so. well, some some were ready for in 1964 is what we heard. i think we have a question back here. kind of. current events questions that. okay, so we're looking at officially now today, donald trump being the republican presidential nominee for the third straight cycle. i wanted ask if you see any i guess parallels between trump

and ronald reagan as revolution areas who challenge authority. and if reagan around today what might you what would he think of of donald trump? it's an excellent question. first of all, reagan was a party man, right? once he you know, he was democrat for 84 from 32 to 1963, i think. but he was loyal democrat. but, you know, he campaigned for he campaigned for harry truman. he campaigned for helen geoghegan, douglas against richard nixon, which i consider a in his favor. but by 63 said, you know, we famously said, i didn't leave the party. the party left me. and who's right? he's right. the democratic party was moving steadily to the left. it had changed from the pro-worker pro pro-american party to he didn't recognize anymore. so he switched the republican party. the parallels are clear, more clear than i think people realize. one is, is that they both

challenge authority. they both challenge the washington establishment. look, you go back to the 80 campaign and look at the terrible things that were said about ronald reagan by the establishment, by everybody. everybody. you know, i'm having trouble thinking of some of the people, but it's in one of my books, they recount some of but they were terrified that ronald reagan was coming to washington and he was going to upset the establishment. and the same thing now is being said it's the same playbook now personally. they're worlds. they're different. they're different. met. but that's just how they approach politics and life and culture, society and the culture society was different 1980 than it is today. today it requires more shaking up than it did in 1980, as much as it required in 1980. it requires more now. but on the issues, there's some protocol. trump is pro-life reagan was pro-life. trump is pro tax cuts. reagan was pro tax cuts is trump wants to shrink washington

bureaucracy. reagan wanted to shrink the washington bureaucracy. you got the of issues. is that and that's because reagan changed the republican party which i don't think really understand it since the republican party is more malleable than the democratic. the republican party used to sport smith paul smith. smith. yes. mythology you which was high tariffs and of course aided brought about to help promulgate the great depression because because we stopped trade because it was so expensive. and then the republican party under reagan became a free trade party and now it's reverting back, being a high tariff party. in 1972, democratic senators walter mondale and ted kennedy said, wouldn't it stimulate the economy by massive tax cuts? this is true. democratic senators say massive cuts and the nixon administration said, no, we're

going to stimulate the economy by massive federal spending. i mean, clip complete role reversal in just 40 years. so party is on war on many, many issues. the republican party has changed, but it's been fairly constant since reagan's time, which i think is another understood accomplishment. ronald reagan and said he changed for a lifetime or even longer. what the republican party stands for, for creating a dynamic republican party. precisely, precisely. do we have. i think i saw some other hand. so we're going to go one, two, three and we'll finish. well, four and five. okay. so, mikey mag, if you can catch all that numbering there. hey, craig, how are you doing? good. how are you? all right. you look the recent polls and they show that joe biden. i got my glasses on. paul. i owe. yeah. you know, joe biden is now one of the greatest presidents to

some recent polling and. and ronald reagan seems to have kind hit a hit. hit a ceiling. do you see that changing over the next 5000 years that he will if historians are honest? if historians are honest. i saw a poll the other day by a bunch of political scientists who are notoriously left wing and they had joe biden rated as the ninth greatest president, which has made me gag, you know, is that joe biden is a terrible, terrible president. he is going to go down in history by honest historians as worst president in american history, if not the worst reagan by like token. and it's not my standard it's the standard of a liberal professor john patrick is many ways the unofficial historian of the american left. he wrote books about the labor movement. he wrote books about the women's movement. he wrote books, civil rights. but his book he wrote and he and i became many years ago before he passed away. his last book was called ronald reagan.

fate, freedom, the making of history. and in this book, he says four greatest presidents. he used very good criteria set up for greatest presidents were washington. lincoln fdr and ronald reagan because a they left their country a better place to live than when they came into office. and because they freed or saved many, many people. and look what reagan did with fall of the berlin wall and the fall of communism followed the soviet state and how he up the the warsaw pact countries and led old soviet republics. it was all due reagan's policies. you know people looked at it. people thought he was crazy because he said in 1980 or the campaign he had, he had what, he said, was his grand strategy. right. which was destroy american morale, which was to which was to to create a bombing, which is to create jobs and. three, to defeat the soviet union. and they're all they're all interlinked because he knew that that a happy people are productive people in people in

seventies were miserable because we had 17 years john kennedy's assassination and the loss in vietnam nixon's high interest rates high inflation. john travolta pet rocks pet rocks jimmy. carter's failed president gerald ford's failed presidency. richard nixon's failed president. so we had 70 horrible years where there was good news. it was all bad. and reagan reagan saw, this. and he said, look, i need to restore morale, because for the first time in history, in 1980, parents did not think they'd always thought every time, ever since been polled, parents always thought the future would be better for the children than had been for them until 1980, when that stopped. people not think that anymore. so the idea that joe biden is a great president is, just nonsense. it's poppycock. ridiculous. name one thing that he's been successful at other than spending money. and by way any more on can spend

money. well, i also think that just you know reagan watched a few john travolta movies in the white house. i'm sorry. i think reagan. a few john travolta movies. yeah. he probably did. well, just to clear vulture, travolta was three. screen was no travolta. i really like him as an actor. i just said there's a joke. but travolta was a guest at, the reagan white house several times, and he actually danced with princess di there. that's right. all right. i think we have matt in the audience for a question here. thank you. i wonder if you could comment on the relationship between george bush and ronald reagan, particularly after the 1980 election, once they were working together and what role bush had as reagan's in the policymaking process. excellent question. it was very, very complicated relationship, animated by the fact that mrs. reagan never warmed up to the bushes. you know, she and barbara went to smith college, but didn't

mean anything. eight years, the reagans were president. the bushes were never invited to the private residence in eight years. and he was vice president reagan was was easier to forgive than mrs. reagan. but you in 1980. you know issue of reagan's age up a lot. it was a lot there was a lot of there was too old for the presidency and blah blah blah blah blah and this and. the other thing it really had there was john sears. john sears was campaign manager in 76. and then for a short time in 80 before he before he was fired by reagan. but he took reagan off the road for a year wouldn't let him go out campaigning wouldn't i'm right columns wouldn't do anything. and so what happens in the vacuum is, is instead of reagan making news and staying, is that the gossip mongers over reagan's two old reagan you if only reagan was alive things would be better. bob barr real nasty stuff and a lot. this came from the bush

campaign. they were animate. look, they were established. there were establishment parents, whereas reagan, an anti-establishment parent. so there was always going to be a clash, you know, and i tell you one example, one time bush, when bush was chairman of the republican national committee, he was asked a reporter, he says, well, tell me ambassador, are you a liberal or moderate or conservative? and bush disdainfully says labels are four cans. well reagan would have knocked it out of the park. you know, he go on to a long dissertation, libertarianism being, the fundamental basis of american conservatism and baker on the edge of agile and he'd reframe the books and he very you know to events in history you know and so there was always that. and of course, he bush's reagan's tax plan is called voodoo economics. that really set off mrs. she was not happy about that and she wrote her diary she wrote in her book that that really set her off and, and the slurs about

reagan's age because while reagan fighting this false rumor about is age bush was jogging everywhere. right. he was jogging. and texas he was jogging in iowa. jogging in new hampshire. he was jogging all the time for the better for the media. you know. and then he went to a gym in concord and did lifts did weight lifts and said, let me see ronald reagan do that, you know, that type of stuff and that really, really, really that was a and i understand why it was a burn to mrs. reagan saddle so he picked bush because he was out of at the convention they tried the co-presidency with gerald ford that, you know, it worked for about 8 hours and then it fell apart. right. it was just you know, it was nonsense, really. you know, jim baker later, he said he says if they been elected, would you call ford mr. president, mr. vice president, be mr. vice president. mr. president.

so fell apart and reagan was out of options. jack kemp was too young. the one option i wish he'd thought of. i wish he thought it was to go back to a 76 choice. the schweiker really, really good man senator from pennsylvania. and he dramatically when he was reagan's running mate in 76, he was he a moderate republican senator, although he was great on captive nations, was pro-life. he was pro-second amendment. he was weak on labor issues. but that's understandable. being from pennsylvania. but he had changed radically in those four years, he'd become a very good conservative by 1980. and i wish i'd been there in bush's suite, you know, with hannaford and -- allen, all those mike and others i wish i said, you know, said reagan picked schweiker because already been tested. you've been vetted. right. and he's a good guy and he's got a wonderful family. he's got there's no you a no downside and it'll help unify

the convention. well, now we know what you should have said in new hampshire. yes. yeah, right. well, no, no. detroit. detroit. okay. but anyway, is that i'm sorry. back to paul's question or your question also. i'm sorry i objectified bush in. oh, is that was always uneasy relationship that bush gave a masterful speech at the reagan funeral and mrs. bush specifically chose bush. she wanted a president to speak at the reagan funeral at the national. i was there for the funeral it was terrific it was just wonderful. it you know how to describe it. it's just a clash of cultures. so it's just, you know, that reagan was western agrarian populist, bush was houston elitist and, you know, born when he was a kid, he went to school on a limousine, although he's a great man who's a great hero of world war two. is that is that there was just i

mean they did lunch once together, once week and reagan tried. but the other hand is that they just disagreed on so many things and so many things. so it was a very, very dance. your question? it was a very, very complicated relationship. and, of course, mrs. reagan said, look, i sleep with this. of course i'm going to tell him, give my advice you know, and so it's understandable that reagan would some of his opinions based on his conversations with mrs. reagan. well, i know that you take that model of listening to your wife as you at all. absolutely. your. absolutely. well, i think saw maybe one more question and then let's get many more questions. let's take more question. and then, craig, are you willing to take more questions? yes, i long to i talk to you. so he's not going anywhere. i love a captive audience or a captive audience. and the author never, ever upset when someone asks the question. okay.

so i think i had chris first. okay, third. so let's have chris and then let's have q&a and the book signing. okay, great. excellent. craig coming back, a point that was made a minute ago about. presidents that you alluded to it, really about that come from outside the political class. yes. versus those that do and know both reagan and trump come to mind. but you also have covered a lot of other history and, looked at different presidencies and all that. do you see a pattern in the accord placements that really may feature game changing of presidents that come out of the political class versus those that do? and let me just two ideas that

come mind. think of reagan and sdi versus and the previous and trump with the abraham accords in the middle east. right. but is there a pattern. beyond just those two? but have you seen that historically? yes. yes, excellent question. i have not gotten that question before, by the way, this gentleman is chris lee. we've been friends for many, many years going back the seventies when we were a small band of conservatives meeting in washington. i think we met in a phone booth then? yeah. anyway, i let me just say for the record, is that what trump did you know there were six arab embassies in israel who would have thought 20 years ago that that would happen? i mean, for something like that is that man deserves a nobel prize. nobel peace prize. but also. but he never got to of course. but also i tried to.

is it what douglas macarthur did with stewardship of japan after the war and its rebuilding of japanese culture, economy and society? he also had to serve the peace, the nobel peace prize. but of course he was a so he's not going to get it is that it takes? people who are outside the box, who are revolutionaries, who see the world in a different way, who are not hemmed in by the political classes, who are not afraid of controversy or ridicule? is that i remember they you know, reagan's star wars, right. you know, the cover of time magazine, you know, said star wars after reagan gave the speech. and a lot of the washington elites fun of it. but it was the reagan is always looking for a third way. he rejected he hated the idea of mutually assured destruction. he said there's got to be a better. and of course, with the soviet bloc at first guard as as containment under truman and then it evolved over the years to de détente and we end up

doing deals with soviets or giving them loan guarantees and giving them grain, all sorts of insane things, helping prop up a terrible, terrible state. and reagan said, this is crazy. this is nuts. and he was introduced to sdi, immediately grasped the idea, said, look, we don't have to accept mutually assured destruction, is that there's a third way we can protect america with a space based and land based sdi system that can knock down soviet missiles. and of course, it scared the hell out of the soviets. they knew america had the technology and know how to build exactly this system, which, like gorbachev, panicked in reykjavik in which reagan came of there, and that was really signal. i don't know if you were there, chris. i know you're part the planning, but that's really the beginning of the end of the cold war. the victory over communal ism was his. i can't imagine gorbachev going

back to the kremlin and saying to the generals and i told you this, saying to the generals, no, i didn't accept reagan's plan to reduce nuclear missiles because he has a theory. and the general said what? what we could have gotten of a bunch of american missiles. and you didn't do it because because a theory. but it was a brilliant way of looking at the world in a different way, which is not just their missiles. your launch, our missiles launch. everybody's wiped out. it's we can defend america, their missiles. we can knock down their missiles. but he was always looking for third ways. you know, like, you know, fighting the communists he used everything short of going to war, right. aiding the nicaraguan, aiding the mujahideen, aiding the revolution, aiding all these freedom fighter movements in in in europe, in eastern europe in the soviet bloc, in so cases.

he was always there's, always creativity in his thinking, not just accepting the status quo. well, i think that's a good note to end that dynamic mind of ronald reagan. so please join me in thinking craig shirley for this wonderful thought. thank also thank you so much for visiting. thank you. and i believe now craig, going to see you over there. you're on leave until you sign every book, every out. happy to. and if you have questions, go ahead and ask craig questions at the beginning. by all means, there's other point. can i make one other point? one last point. one point, 1980, when reagan was campaign. i touched on this earlier, but i didn't expand it. reagan said, you basically he said, we don't need arms control. we need an arms race. and people thought he was crazy, but he knew exactly what he was talking about because he knew we had the technology was superior to the soviets.

but he look, we're going to get an arms race and we're going to build up defenses and force the soviets the table and get them to reduce armaments and reduce their military might. and that's precisely what happened. and because of amf, right. is that the soviets eliminated. well, not soviets, americans, too, but 2400 nuclear missiles were eliminated because of imp. i mean, there is such a marvelous because reagan exactly what he said he's going to build up forced the soviets a table and forced them to give up their armaments. so anyway that's peace through strength message. thank you. thank you.

good evening,