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these other television providers, giving you a front row seat to democracy. "washington journal." we are joined by ryan hass of the brookings institution. he is a former national security council director of and mongolia during the obama administration and critically the china-centric director. welcome to the program. guest: thank you. host: if you could explain to us how do china's policies harm the u.s. economy? guest: as china's economy was rising, they decided to subsidize them so they would be cost competitive. many factories shifted for costs, purposes to china and to jobs with them and lead to this halloween out of manufacturing across the u.s. -- hallowing out of manufacturing across the

u.s.. -- about to be invited click jobs back from china to u.s.. host: is attacked about truck policies and joe biden policies, let's talk about chinese steel and aluminum. what is the big deal with those two? guest: president biden announced he is considering raising trips on still and aluminum three times he did so in pittsburgh talking to united still were which is probably not it's -- united steelworkers which is probably not a coincidence. on his mind is to reach the number of electoral college votes. he is going to be focused on issues that affect voters in those states and try to address their concerns and needs. one concern that steelworkers

have the cost of steel from china is simply cheaper than what they are able to produce themselves. they want protection to be able to develop their industry. host: you agree with biden's call on more tariffs? guest: i think there is a logic to it. host: economically, does it make sense? guest: it would be hard for me to make a solid economic case. in order for u.s. still appears to -- we need to increase tariffs and increase the cost of china's imported steel into the u.s.. there is a logic, a theory to this case. host: could it actually work? guest: we will see. host: haven't we had churros on chinese imports? guest: the challenge is that a number of people who work in industries that use steel is

about 75 times greater than the number of steelworkers in the u.s.. by raising the cost of steel coming into the u.s., it will have a large impact on those who work with steel then on those who actually produce it. host: beijing has said it will "take action to protect the country's interests." what kind of action. they take -- could they take? guest: beijing's approach has not been to take a captor punch. i do think china was to be a prominent headline future of the presidential debate. i think whatever actually take will be symbolic in nature. and mentor to limit -- they may try to limit american's ability to procure from china but it will not have a macro impact. host: they also said washington's actions would undermine the global supply chain. is that true?

guest: the portion of steel from china in the u.s. still is less than 2%. that sounds like hyperbole. guest: -- host: if you have a question or comment on u.s. trade policy with china, you can start calling now. the lines are republicans, 202-748-8001. democrats, 202-748-8000. independents, 202-748-8002. let's talk about the difference between biden policies and truck policies. how would these terrorists be different from former president trump's tariffs on china and would they be in addition to current tariffs? host: these are the -- guest: these tariffs in china would be in addition to existing tariffs.

this is part of the broader story. president biden was critical of president trump's insistence on tariffs. there is a lot of evidence that supports that. as president, president biden has maintained those tariffs and build on top of them to demonstrate his willingness to take on fair practices. host: let's look at a portion of what president biden in pittsburgh on wednesday. [video clip] pres. biden: together these are strategic and targeted actions that protect, can workers and ensure fair competition. my predecessor and maga republicans went across the board tariffs from all countries. it is estimated it would cost dimmick and family an average of $1500 a year if they succeeded in doing that. trump doesn't get it.

i have heard many of my democratic fans -- france say china is on the rise in america's phone kind. i have been the only one disagreed with that. i have believed we have got it wrong, merck is rising. we have the best economy in the world. our gdp is up, after deficit is down. we are standing up against china's government on economic is. host: he says that his actions were targeted but his predecessors were across the board. guest: this taps into a big argument president biden will make when talking about china which is he has taken a very focused strategic approach and president trump took a broadbrush approach to dealing with the competition from china. the distinction president china is going to try to make is that he represents confidence and

trump represents chaos. by taking a very focused approach, the u.s. will be able to form a better outcome. there is evidence to support the argument the president might -- president biden is making. if you look at the performance of the u.s. and chinese stock market, the chinese stock market has lost $6 trillion and the u.s. has gained $3 trillion. we look at the size of the u.s. and chinese economy, the u.s., is growing at a faster rate than china is so the gap between u.s. and china's economic size is growing in america's favor. there is evidence to what president biden is trying to prosecute. host: what is the trade deficit with china? guest: it is at the lowest today

than any other time since 2010. host: there is an announcement that u.s. trade representative would launch a review of china's ship tilting industry -- building industry. what is expected to come of that? guest: we will have to see. the concept is that the u.s. needs to rebuild its capacity to produce ships and in order to do so, it needs to protect its industry so it is sitting on a level playing field with china, korea, and others. unless there were to stop their subsidies, it would be difficult for the u.s. to compete on a cost basis with china. given the fact that china is unwilling to -- subsidies, the alternative is to increase tariffs to level the playing field. host: let's talk to callers and stop on the line a democrat in wichita, kansas. jessica, good morning.

caller: i am worried china will take the initiative to join the war in israel. what are your thoughts? if that were to happen, would the u.s. have to step in? host: -- guest: license is the chinese have been content to stand back and try to claim the moral high ground, advocate for certain principles, encourage dissolution in vons and a two state solution. the chinese are content to sit back and let members of the developing world and the global south criticize the u.s. at the moment, the chinese are taking a step back approach, letting the usb front and center and put pressure on the cubist to deliver a solution. host: los angeles, california.

independents. good morning. caller: i am a 90-year-old veteran. i had the opportunity to touch base at the end of korea and a front side of not. -- the front side of vietnam. i have been over in hong kong and in bangkok after we left korea. i have seen singapore and thailand and korea wendy -- were still there before they felt. -- they fell. i have seen the situation in the far east and anything we do to benefit china further than we already have by building of their navy to be bigger than ours and now we are helping them to build up their air force.

we are doing wonderful by sending money over there to build up supposedly our electric cars where the batteries are being in china which is further going to help building up their mission even further. i think we should spend more time finding people or situations in south america or at least friendly nations that have the minerals or the electricity to power the batteries. where is the power coming from to charge these batteries? we are tearing down our power plants led and right -- left and right. the colorado river is a trickle compared to what it was when i was a kid. host: let's get a response.

guest: thank you for your service. i think what you are describing is a debate that exists about how to best deal with competition from china. on the side trump advocates, there is a desire to make it costly and try to encourage companies to leave the chinese market, either to reassure to the u.s. or develop manufacturing outside of china. the side of the biden administration review the best way to deal with this competition is to do it by investing at home and working closely with allies. those are two different visions of dealing with the same challenge and that debate is going to unfold over the coming months. host: when former president trump won the election in 2016, you were working in the obama administration. you were set to breathe his team

-china relations -- his team on u.s.-china relations. what did you tell them? was there any change in rhetoric? did they signal a change in policy? guest: you are right, we were sent to trump tower to handoff the china portfolio to the incoming team, not to influence or sell them on any approach, but to help them understand their inheritance, how we got to we were, what decisions informed choices we made. we got five or 10 minutes to do this breathing before the people on the other side of the table said we got it. enough. we know what we need to know. the problem you have, pointing to me, is you don't understand we are in a struggle between the u.s. and china. one comfortable win, one country will lose, we must win. i left baffled. the idea that the u.s. would be able to oppose its will on a $17

trillion economy with nuclear capabilities seemed fanciful to me. that was the mindset. to fast forward to last week, that similar viewpoint has been expressed by conner smith gallagher and a former senior administration official who have continued this argument. it is less clear where president trump is because the vessel is between flattery and anger in his to china. people around president trump feel passionately about the existential nature of the competition between the u.s. and china. host: when you say flattery anger, piston trump is called -- president bynum has called xi jinping -- president biden --

sorry, i'm getting confused. former president praised xi jinping and president biden has called him a thug and a dictator. can you talk about xi jinping and how china views those leaders? guest: president trump believes an intimate relationship between him and the chinese leader will help facilitate progress on his priorities. president biden believes in the power of personal relationships but is less certain that public praise of xi jinping will deliver progress on american priorities. president biden is outspoken and direct and candid in his articulation of oppression she should be -- president xi jinping's system. president xi jinping is absent being called a thug, but he is a cold-blooded calculator and i

doubt that he has a clear preference between one candidate or the other in the upcoming election. host: let's look at what former president trump said in a fox news interview in for very putting the idea of increasing tariffs on chinese exports. [video clip] >> your critics are saying you are going to start another trade war. >> look, china came in and they were going to destroy our still industry. >> you're talking about 60% tariffs on chinese terrace. >> i would say it would maybe be more than that. i want china to do great. i like president jinping. he was a very good friend of mine. >> [indiscernible] >> sure, i got along with him great. host: what you think of that? guest: the record is there work

foreclosures as a result of the trade war. 300,000 people in the u.s. lost their jobs as a result of president trump's trade war and $1.7 trillion of stock market value was wiped out. the trade war ended with a phase one trade agreement between the u.s. and china which was premised on a promise china would increase purchases on american products of the span of two years. it's never happened. president trump from a political standpoint has made inroads from the heartland by showing he will take up the cause, he is willing to -- with china in defense of american workers. record performance does not lend confidence that the approach he pursued will have results. host: richard, the line for democrats. massachusetts. caller: i am glad to be on the show. in congress, i would like to see

them use a mirror against all of the trade policies from china, blocking the u.s. companies from doing business. if i was president and i was to send a delegation against the chinese, i would get a mirror and have them hold it up and show them exactly what they are trying to do to us. congress should use a mirror against trade policies against us. also the chinese influence on congress in the electing process. the chinese have infiltrated through money and funding congress elections. what are thoughts on that?

guest: i think there is a degree of -- to what you're saying. they have been subsidizing industries to compete on the world stage. -- spending to support american industries, infrastructure, clean energy mussununga and appears. it is part of any effort to take a bit of china's playbook and put it in play in the u.s.. we will see how effective that is. there is any effort underway to build a wreck national champions and industries to compete on the world stage against china. host: where are you on the forcing the sale of tiktok? he did mention the chinese influence in congress and there is wording about the chinese government trying to lobby congressman. guest: i have a 16-year-old

daughter so this is not an abstraction to. my sense is that congress is going to move in the coming days on a decision about tiktok and is not biden has indicated he will sign it. i think this will be resolved in the courts. it will be a debate between whether tiktok poses a series national security threat to the u.s. to justify curtailing some free-speech liberties americans enjoy. host: let's go to little river, south carolina. roy. good morning. caller: good morning. host: go ahead. caller: i would like to know how the country thinks thehe house will be in order.e >> the house has been in recess but is gaveling back in. we take