they want the status quo. however, 60% of the investments are going to red states. these battery companies, et cetera. solar factories. it would be political suicide for a politician to decide to vote against what is happening in that state. georgia is a great example. i mean, they have a huge new battery belt happening there. they are the main strap of the battery belt. and vying against a state like michigan, the buckle of the battery belt. but the governor, republican. he is saying, we watched this industry here, and he should. >> all right. secretary jennifer granholm of the united states government. thank you so much. >> thanks. >> that is it on this thursday night. alex wagner starts now. >> such an important conversation. senator or cabinet member.

she knows what she is talking about. thank you, my friend. today, a full jury in panel at donald trump's controversy case. a full jury. to be some civic, 12 jurors. before the trial can get underway, the court still has to pick five more alternate jurors. with the pace this is going, that could very easily happen tomorrow, putting this trial on track for opening statements to start monday. or some of those seated jurors could drop out tomorrow. because it has not been an entirely unprecedented scenario. before the jury grew today, it shrink. today started with two already seated jurors being excused, being removed from the jury. the first to be excused was juror number two. to understand why you first have to understand what has been happening in conservative media. >> i believe that no matter what they do here, this is a

hate donald trump jury. >> this was like the breakfast club. in other words, that could be dicey. and in the daily news, the daily news is the most anti- trump newspaper in the country. >> she said two things that really stuck out. one, quote, i don't really have an opinion of trump. and, quote, no one is above the law. i'm not so sure about juror number two. >> yeah. pretty skeptical about people who believe that no one is above law. yesterday, that purser common juror number two, called the court to make sure she was clear about being worried to serve on this jury. they called back to ask what was wearing her and here is what she said. i definitely have concerns now, one of them being that aspects of my identity have already been out there in public. yesterday alone i had friends and colleagues push things to my phone regarding questioning my identity as a juror.

she went on to explain that because of that experience, because she was bombarded with press and because of how many people could tell who she was from publicly reported details, even though the jury is supposed to be anonymous, because of all of that, she no longer felt she could be impartial. she couldn't ignore what she described as outside influences that might affect her decision- making in the courtroom. now, there are a lot of issues at play here. one is that through this jury selection process we have learned a lot of identifying details about this jury and the press, by and large, has published those details, which of course threatens the jury's anonymity. but the other issue at play here that i do not think we can ignore is that conservatives and right-wing media are actively trying to demonize members of this jury. some are doing it in broad strokes, claiming that any new york jury must be biased by virtue of the fact that they

are in new york. others are going further, claiming that liberals are trying to sneak onto this jury, claiming that the jury selection process itself is rigged. >> trumps already catching a handful as they try to sneak onto the jury. having a democrat prosecutor and a democrat judge in a democrat city isn't enough. you need to rig the jury too. >> now, the fox fear mongering here has not been limited to fox airways. last night, trump posted this to truth social, questioning, quoting jesse watters. they are catching undercover liberal activists lying to the judge in order to get on the trump jury. trump himself is calling the jury pool biased against him. he is accusing the jury selection of being rigged. now, there's a lot to unpack there, like how that post was one of seven posts the district

attorney's office biked to the just today as potential violations of jumps gag order. we're going to get into that in more detail later this hour. let's begin with the fact that the narrative jesse watters and donald trump are pushing here is literally the exact opposite of what we are actually seeing in the courts. last night, while trump was posting jesse watters' conspiracies to truth social, manhattan d.a. was emailing trumps lawyers and the judge. as one of braggs prosecutors explained in court today, they said that one of the previously seated jurors, or at least someone with the same name, had been arrested in the 1990s in westchester for tearing down political advertisements, specifically political posters that were on the right. the political right. so that is a juror potentially tearing down right-wing propaganda. now, the juror in question, who was previously juror number four, has not disclosed this information in his jury questionnaire, but alvin bragg's team says they believe they were legally and ethically

obligated to bring this information to the courts attention and so they did. just to be completely above board here, no reporters were able to hear the conversation with the judge so we don't actually know if prosecutors concerns panned out but ultimately juror number four was excused from this jury. a juror who may have had a strong anti-conservative issue. a jury who may have even been anti-trunk, flagged by the prosecution. that is how fair this jury selection process is in reality. alvin bragg's team is doing everything it can to make sure there isn't a hint of anything that could be perceived as bias on the jury because the prosecution very much wants this to be a fair trial. but trump and conservative media are already setting the stage to blame the jury if trump is found guilty. just like they do with elections. the narrative here cannot be, it cannot be, that donald trump lost because of who he is or what he has done.

the narrative has to be that the whole thing was rigged. and that brings us to the most pressing part of all of this. the safety of the jurors. by painting the jury as race, trump and the conservative media are putting the target on the backs of these normal people, literally people just showing up for jury duty. at this point, that is part of a very clear pattern. donald trump demonized election workers and then his supporters threatened and attacked them. donald trump demonized court staff and prosecutors and judges and then his supporters threatened and harassed them. donald trump demonized the fbi and now multiple trump supporters have physically attacked fbi field offices. multiple fbi offices. today, the judge in this case asked the press to limit the amount of identifying information we as the press published about these jurors, understanding the physical danger that information could put them in, one would hope

most of the numbers of the press will comply. i know we will. what happens if other people aren't as cautious? what happens if donald trump or conservative media keep demonizing these people, saying they are secret partisans out to destroy donald trump? what happens if they put the jury in danger? >> cnn says, don't worry about the stuff they are trying to sneak onto the case, you are putting their lives in danger. >> i am surprised we're learning this because i don't think the jury will stay on this if they keep this up. >> you are worried about their safety? >> yeah. it is up to them if they want to write a book after this but that is their option. they should not be out of it this way. >> the seven jurors, can we trust them? >> that was last night, before jesse watters brought on, i kid you not, a body language expert to give her take on which jurors would be good or bad for donald trump. waters was back at it again describing each new individual

juror. this is this evening, saying a few details about the juror and then using that information to imply certain jurors are anti- trump. that is what is happening right now. joining me now are jeremy so it , a former district attorney from the manhattan d.a. offices trial division, and a former federal prosecutor who is now a senior writer. jeremy, let me first start with you about what is happening here in the larger picture of how the core is being discussed. the judge, the prosecutors, and now the jury. what are the implications for the american justice system? >> you have to separate the donald trump who is on trial, innocent until proven guilty, as responsible as you and i are. separate that from the donald trump who is vitriolic, who says reprehensible things, who is dangerously reckless, and is personally responsible for

undermining the criminal justice system. i say that boldly because it is accurate. these other folks, some in the media, some who just follow him, it is as if they are imbibing on some jonestown kool- aid and going after it and perpetuating it. my big fear and what everyone's fears should be is that it is something that could be indelible, at least for this generation, and that is very concerning. outside that courtroom it is really awkward. >> to that point, the jonestown kool-aid. they have proffered this drink before. and the institutional, unwinding institutional integrity is essential part of the trump projects, whether it is the elections or the jurors or the justice system. this is how the cookie crumbles. this is how you get people to believe that the whole thing is rigged. as an insurance policy against donald trump. >> you should expect that

whoever they are and whatever they believe, they are going to uphold the law, listen to the law, and put their personal opinions aside, but it is incredibly difficult when you have someone like donald trump. >> i don't know. it is making it or not making it to be the subject of a jesse watters tirade but i think you are impressed by the fact that these jurors will have a lot to contend with. they may not feel comfortable being on the jury. they may not want to be public. we saw some departures this morning. within the system as it exists now, what can be done to protect them short of the judge just requesting that the media probably doesn't report out important personal details? >> i think that the judge took that step and the second and more important step, which is that he rolled that the answers that they provide, the questions about their past and current occupations, will not be made public. it will not be in the trial or on transcript for the public to review.

i think that is a very positive step. i don't think it will necessary temple of this down in fact i know that it won't but it is a step in the right direction. i think the problem here is that it is hard to change course midstream. this should have been resolved before this began. the judge issued an order on jury selection. the questions were public. everybody knew it was going to happen. this was eminently predictable. so i also have to say, i really take issue with some comments he made today directed at the press. this is not the presses fault it is the d.a. offices fault. >> can we talk about how to manage the situation? i know that not only is changing midstream potentially problematic, but the information about jurors is something that defendants traditionally get in the process of vetting them, right? donald trump has a very -- is a very particular political animal. is it problematic to not give the defense, you know,

information like the jurors employment or where they live? can you actually withhold that information from one side? >> in the courtroom, donald trump is entitled to the same things you and i would be entitled to. if he is going to do that with the potential jurors he should know where they are from originally. not necessarily the street address but what state are you from? what kind of work do you do? how long have you been in manhattan? these are reasonable and important questions that i have gotten from every juror whether i was a prosecutor or a criminal defense attorney. it is the needs by wish you visit this later on and other people can figure out who that person is you are trying to protect so the integrity of the justice process can exist. you exploited selfishly on the pulpit outside the courtroom. >> could they use that as grounds for appeal? we're picking this jury with one hand tied behind our back. we didn't have all the information. >> they are getting the information.

they are getting those questions and answers. that is not the issue. what is being done is it affects the prosecution. they are getting a number but other than that they're getting information and they are being allowed to ask the questions so as i have seen, there is no pellet issue that they are going to turn around. they were certainly try but this is being done fairly. >> outside the courtroom. ankush, when we talk about jurors who, we are still looking for alternates, i believe. five more alternates need to be impaneled, if you will. juror two effectively got cold feet the other day. i would assume there is a particular need for alternates in the trial like this, given the high stakes on the high wire act that it is, participating in this trial. is it possible, part of the elementary and nature of this question, but can jurors leave a trial if there are external pressures that happen in the course of this trial?

and can they be replaced at any point? is there a limit to the number of jurors who can say, i'm tapping out? >> these are very good questions and this could get tricky. during the trial itself, yes. if something were to happen that the judge deemed appropriate to excuse someone he could do that. that is what they are there for. or if someone gets sick or whatever. but this isn't really the typical case, the typical pattern where we are just worried about people getting sick. he has six wishes an unusually high number of alternates. i would not be surprised if the person who raised the concerns this morning is followed by more people. they weren't all there today. she was there because she called the judges chambers last night and the judge asked her to come explain. it is possible that every other juror had similar experiences yesterday.

>> i am assuming there is not really a precedent for amassed departure or a significant number of jurors departing, is there? >> there is not. in theory, if everyone were to beg off, he now has in place a system that will at least limit the further public disclosure of some of the details that include the unpleasantness for this person yesterday and maybe other people. so the doomsday scenario that you are positing, which you are right to be concerned about, i don't think it will end up that way. i think it will just be more jurors. >> literally building the plane on the runway, as it were, it seems. ankush khardori, thank you for your time today. jeremy, please stick around because i have more to ask you about the big piece of unfinished business in this trump trial, namely whether anyone can make donald trump behave himself in court. later, house speaker mike johnson is trying really hard not to run into the bus stop of his far right flank. can he avoid them?

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day three of donald trump's criminal hush money trial ended not only with a seated jury but also with an interesting exchange. a few minutes ago we got a transcript of today's proceedings and here is how that exchange went. trumps lawyer said, i would ask that the people, meaning the prosecution, provide us the defense with the names of their first three witnesses so that we can prepare. prosecutor josh stein glass said, that as a courtesy we usually extend. we are not telling who the witnesses are. the judge said, i can't fault the people for that. mr. blanche, what if i commit to the court that president

trump will not tweet about any witness? the judge, not buying it. saying, i don't think you can make that representation. they won't give it to today or tomorrow and they are not required to. the concern over witness safety is part of a broader concern here about donald trump's outbursts. earlier today they asked judge merchan to hold trump in contempt for problematic social media posts he has made and that is on top of the other problematic posts trump made earlier that the prosecution says violate his current gag order. joining me now is andrew bernstein, journalist covering trump for pr and author of "american oligarchs: the commissioners, the trumps, and american power." and of course, jeremy saland. andrea, i am curious to hear your assessment of this. it feels like we talked about the intersection between candidate trump and defendant

trump. to hear the outbursts and weaponization of the jurors in the trial and the witnesses, it is really not to his benefit here. the defense is not going to get the names of the first three witnesses because nobody trusts them. >> that was a surprise. we all know who the witnesses are going to be here. it's just a question of strategy. there was judge one saying i don't trust you to keep your mouth shut or your fingers off your keyboard so you don't get this. you have lost that privilege. on the first day of that trial when he said to trump, he says he writes to everybody but it really resounded when he said, if you disrupt the proceedings you can be expelled and i can send you to jail. because in all of the other trials that i have covered up trump that he has attended he has disrupted the proceedings. he's had interactions with the judge, muttered in front of the

jury. he has spoken audibly in front of the jury. he stood up and gave his own causing arguments in the fraud trial after being told directly by the judge, you can't do that. when merchan says that he has the weight of history behind him in that judgment. >> i also think that it betrays the fractured relationship between trump and his lawyers. his lawyers are saying, what did we promise you? our client isn't going to tweet about this, or we will keep it amongst ourselves. the judges say, you have no basis for saying that. you have no control over your client. >> they can't make that promise. the court is not a part of me. and josh steinglass is saying that. in the course of things with a very cordial relationship that is shared but here point again, he is undeserving. with trump acting as he is acting, to get that information. >> and i would assume by my way

of preparation, it is good to have the information if you know where they will be. the order of things is not significant. >> but you expect to be prepared for those witnesses. it would be unequivocally helpful. >> this is happening day one and it doesn't set the stage for a cordial working relationship between the two. you point out the way in which trump is incapable of censoring himself or exhibiting self- control. i wonder if you think the duration of this trial, the fact he has to be there every day, you can tell us what it is like in that courtroom but it doesn't sound like a trip to disneyland. >> he is obviously unhappy. i think that one of the things that happened in the course of the other trials was that he figured out a way to make it work out to his benefit. this trial he is going to be listening to testimony about an extramarital affair that he had in 2006 and hush money payment, stuff that is much more clear

to the public than he overvalued or undervalued his assets, or how much is mar-a- lago worth. anyone knows what having an affair means. and everyone knows what a porn star is. he has to sit there and listen to it day in and day out. when i was porting previously and speaking with people he could barely sit in any single room for any period of time. when they gave him presentations they were told to give him one word and three images. this is long days in a very kind of uncomfortable courtroom, which is either too hot or too cold. just a very far cry from trump tower. >> and he made a point outside of the court today to talk about what a sham trial it was. he was armed with a stack of newspaper printouts of website and internet articles and complained about the temperature in the courtroom. this is someone who self- control will have to extend not

just to the courtroom itself but after hours as well. >> right. >> the gag order, my question to you would be, what is your expectation about this gag order? >> i mean, he has really been challenged in following any of these gag orders. i think that merchan has clearly shown that he is drawing the line. he is not going to accept it. so we shall see. i mean, as with everything else in this trial, we have no priors so we cannot say what is going to happen because we don't know one minute to the next, let alone one day to the next. all we know is trump has a really hard time. for example, after he was told to pay $83 million to e. jean carroll, there was a period where he was saying, i didn't do it. and then he started again. $83 million is quite a disincentive so can he keep his mouth shut now?

we will see. what will it take? we will find out. >> do you think a couple of hours i rikers is even in the cards? i hesitate to say that because it seems far-fetched. >> first of all, consent can be civil or criminal. if it happened in front of the judge they can say, you summarily committed contempt. if it happens outside or socially, then it is a separate actual hearing. he has a right to challenge that. well, the judge put him up for 30 days on rikers island? probably not. but maybe that's possible. $1000 fine is really insignificant but it is that exposure for most people who don't go to this point. for most people, knowing they can go to jail for 30 days and the judge can make that decision, it is pretty serious. is it possible that he sits somewhere on the side there? >> and an even colder room? there are benches where he can step up he is not going to go to rikers.

he knows that. so. >> stress testing the judicial system. that is where we are right now. andrea bernstein, jeremy saland, it is great to see you both. thank you. coming up, they call themselves the team and they have speaker mike johnson in a very uncomfortable place. that is coming up next.

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whenever donald trump decides he doesn't want to commit to something, whenever he wants to punt on a question about something within his control, he always says the same thing. >> we will see what happens. >> we will see what happens. >> we will see what happens. we will see what happens. >> we will see what happens. >> we will see. the end result is, we will see. >> we will see what happens. this week, donald trump added the fate of house speaker mike johnson to the list of things will where he will wait and see what happens. >> are you going to protect speaker johnson? >> we will see what happens with that. >> did he brief you on his plan to do for separate foreign aid bills? >> mike johnson is in trouble.

right now, the speaker of the house appears to be moving forward with a plan to allow a standalone vote on aid to ukraine, which has made house conservatives furious. some of them are ready to kick mike johnson out of the job the same way they ousted speaker kevin mccarthy six months ago. like mike johnson, he is running out of options to save himself. at the beginning of the date, there were rumblings that johnson might try to change house rules in order to make it harder for conservatives to oust him. that proposal unsurprisingly outraged conservatives. cnn reports that johnson was essentially pinned against the back wall of the house floor with members on all sides of him, with the speaker constantly pivoting his head as he responded to members speaking to him. sounds hectic. the congressional bullying circle, if it wasn't sufficient to get johnson in line, they put together a team to monitor the house floor to make sure

johnson or his allies introduced old measure to change the rules on them. they call themselves the floor action response team, team . yes, that is really what they call themselves. but you have to take them seriously, even though they call themselves , because all day long they were saying that they weren't happy with speaker johnson and they would not abide any changes to these rules. >> our goal is to avoid this. we are not going to surrender that accountability tool. particularly seeing america's interest subjugated. >> we see that the funding would actually be here at the ukraine border, which is not acceptable. >> by the end of the day, mike

johnson caved to the caucus. in a statement on x he stated he would not change the rules for the house speaker, a.k.a. himself, saying, we will continue to govern under the existing roles. the speaker mike johnson has zero protection right now. he cannot change the rules to stop conservative members from kicking him out of office and the only person who can protect him, donald trump, appears to be indifferent to johnson's fate. that is what it means to be a republican these days. give donald trump your undying loyalty, knowing that trump may throw you under the bus whenever it suits him. just wait and see what happens. and now we are seeing what it looks like when republicans whose backs are already covered in tire marks come crawling back to trump. i am going to talk about that with atlantic staff writer mckay coppens next. yeah. and i think it's cool to be able to make

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it's smarter, healthier pet food. do you support him for president even though you believe he contributed to an insurrection? do support him even though you believe he is lying, even though he is committed to this case? the answer to that is yes, correct? >> yeah. me and 51% of america. >> you said it would be an honor. really? >> yeah. anyone given the opportunity should be honored. i think the country and the world was a better place when he was president. i would love to see him return to the white house.

>> that was new hampshire governor and -- marco rubio, crowing after donald trump after spending quite a while criticizing him. just a year ago, the governor wrote an op-ed slamming trump for peddling the conspiracy theory that he won the 2021 election and independence. senator rubio called trump a con man and a fake tough guy. rubio and sununu are not alone and they are not among the most egregious in their sudden change of heart. for that, you would have to look towards general attorney, bill barr, who said that trump's actions on january 6th amounted to a grave wrongdoing. the same bill barr who called trump a consummate narcissist, the same who predicted abuse of power if trump were to be elected again. that bill barr has no endorsed donald trump. >> the republicans, i will support them. i think the real danger of the

country, the danger of democracy, is the progressive agenda. with trump, i said, he may be there but this is national suicide. >> joining me now is mckay coppins, staff writer at the atlantic. what is your reaction to this endorsement of donald trump after all we have heard in the last couple of years? >> it is interesting because some of the other clips you showed, these are republican politicians who still want to have a future in republican politics. so you can kind of understand the calculation they are making. donald trump is the leader of the party, the most popular republican in the party. i have to be aligned with him regardless of what i think if i want to have a job. bill barr is a curious case because maybe i am wrong i don't know what future he has at this point in the party.

he will not run for office. it is unlikely that he would return to the trump administration. trump hates him. what is he doing here? i spent a lot of time reporting on this and thinking about the psychology of these republicans, who understand who trump is and the threat he poses and still find themselves supporting him. i think it is important to understand that it is not always just a simple case of cowardice. cowardice is woven into the calculation but it is something more complicated. i remember talking to mitt romney about this, the utah senator. he said when you are as entrenched in a political party as somebody like bill barr is, or somebody like mitt romney, you spend decades making friends, allies, getting money from the public institutions. it is really hard to disentangle yourself from that party apparatus. turning on trump in the year

2024, as was true in 2020 and 2016, it kicks you out of your whole social ecosystem. i think that is probably part of what is going on with these republicans you just showed. i think they don't want to be people without a party and so they go out to trump even though they know how dangerous he is. >> such a brilliant explanation for it, mckay. a deeply thoughtful one. i was struck by the fact that bill barr calls of ofer biden a vote for national suicide and i wonder if from your conversations with republicans, what lies at the root of that? this idea that the progressive agenda is so suicidal that it trumps, part of the metaphor, what bill barr has outlined, a series of grave concerns about his leadership. do you have a sense of how bill barr justifies this in terms of the biden candidacy? >> i don't know what his issue

is. i think it varies depending on who you talk to. if you are a dyed in the wool social conservative, for example, you might believe that there is a trade-off in the judiciary, the spring court, roe v. wade, things like that, are worth making a deal with a, you know, madman. the way that they see donald trump has. if you are somebody who has a single issue, thinking about deregulation, maybe that is your issue. i don't know what bill barr's issue is but i know that he represents a real phenomenon which is that i think the way a lot of these republicans get to the point where they can get back on board with trump after saying that he is a threat to democracy with a constitutional order, it is by kind of narrowing their view of this race in a way that they think of it as a traditional partisan , party politics election. it is a democrat and a

republican and you disagree with the democrats and everything else aside, the democratic agenda is bad. i spent my entire career built around that idea that the democratic agenda is evil, it is bad, and it is bad for the country. and i think that they kind of rationalize their way into supporting donald trump because they go back to thinking about the selection as a kind of traditional election. like the elections from the 90s or the 80s. >> but it is not that at all. the republican party, let's look at congress. mike johnson is facing an ouster bringing a utah funding bill which in the 90s would have been a no-brainer for the republican party. trump has made the party about him and fealty and loyalty to trump get you nothing. mike johnson was kissing the ring last week. donald trump today doesn't have an opinion on whether mike johnson deserves to keep his job.

is that not a cautionary tale? >> it is such a good point. i constantly bring this up when i talk to republican leaders because the deal that he has offered republican politicians is, you swear to me your absolute unvarnished abject loyalty. often in humiliating ways. in return, i offer you nothing. trump offers no loyalty. time and time again, he has betrayed, humiliating, ousted, ended their careers of republicans who have humiliated themselves sucking up to him. we are almost a decade into this phenomenon. you would think by now republicans would understand that they have no protection. but at the same time, i think that the calculation a lot of them are making is that donald trump might not guarantee me anything, but the voters, the

voters that elect me love donald trump and at the very least, if i am on board with him, they won't revolt against me right away. i really think that is the calculation they are making. again, i don't see how that applies to bill barr who is not running for anything. i would like to see more reporting on what led him to this decision. >> me too. the policy doesn't exist in the loyalty is nonexistence. okay, bill. thank you for your time, it is great to see you as always. russian state media is saying that marjorie taylor- green believes americans should help vladimir putin. that is a thing that is actually happening. we're going to explain, coming up next. so you can lighten every day the metamucil way. if you're living with hiv, imagine being good to go without daily hiv pills.

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today, police in germany accused two-minute men. they were in military sites across germany including a u.s. military base in bavaria.

the goal of these russian operatives was to undermine western support for ukraine. this is now one of vladimir putin's primary goals to weaken the united states and other western democracies and drive a wedge between them and ukraine. here in the u.s., some republican members of congress like congresswoman marjorie taylor-greene seem to be in lockstep with that plan. this week, congresswoman greene announced multiple amendments to the ukraine aid package including one that prohibits funding for ukraine until ukraine stops persecuting christians, something that ukraine does not do. another prohibits funds until ukraine bans abortion. this proposed requirement is for members of congress to join the ukrainian army if they vote for this supplemental aid. lastly, there is an amendment for the u.s. to withdraw from nato. is it any wonder that this is how russian state media talks about marjorie taylor-greene?

[ speaking in a global language ] >> translator: congresswoman marjorie taylor-greene is proposing for the u.s. to withdraw from nato. she believes that americans should help putin when. >> joining me now is anne applebaum, a prize-winning historian and staff writer with the atlantic. thank you for being here. i wonder if you could give me your reaction to russian state media now covering the maga caucus of the conference. >> i think it is important to understand why this is happening and how it is connected to the reason why russia invaded ukraine in the first place. part of the point of invading ukraine was to show that russia doesn't care about rules. it doesn't care about european rules, about not changing orders by force. it wants to defy u.s. power. it wants to show that the u.s. isn't important in europe. and by enabling people who are

critical of the united states and enemies of the united states they can make this plan come true and they have used a really extraordinary level of propaganda, of information campaigns, that is designed to show that the united states isn't powerful or important anymore and the way in which they can make sure this works is by getting americans to say it to. marjorie taylor-greene is playing into their plan. >> marjorie taylor-greene is one thing but the heritage foundation, or the heritage action, which is the campaign, is on board with the plan that is so against america's interests. this is a tweet from heritage action, the political conservative think tank is notifying hill offices of their opposition to the rule governing the foreign aid bills, warning of a key vote no to lawmakers. they don't want to pass it

ukraine. does it surprise you that this pro-russian plan has found such comfort at the heritage foundation? >> it doesn't because this has been part of a russian idea for many months. their idea is to create links between themselves and the conservative party in the uk, the far right of the republican party, and the far array of other political parties in europe. they do sort through this false language, through the language of traditional conservatism or religion, much of which isn't true. it is interesting she was talking about ukraine. russia also have has legal abortion. very few people go to church and russia is the country that persecutes christians, particularly evangelical christians. they have portrayed themselves as some kind of ally of the far right and they have done it all over the world. in the u.s., in europe. people

have bought it, whether they bought it for ideological or financial reasons we are not sure, or whether they just find it useful to have somebody else supporting that kind of rhetoric. we don't know the full answers yet but it is true that a part of the party now effectively serves as the voice of russia and its allies. remember, this was their ally to china and autocracies all over the rest of the world. many of them use the same kind of language. >> to that end, can you paint a picture of the implications of ukraine loses this war? not just for ukraine but in terms of the global order of things. >> if ukraine loses this work, it will be understood throughout the world as a loss for the united states, as a loss of american influence, as an end of a certain set of american ideas about diplomacy,

about, as i said, about borders being here, about the right of smaller nations to exist and not be tormented by larger nations. it will really be understood as the end of american power and influence. >> vice president mike pence says he believes putin will wage war on nato if ukraine loses the war. you think that is hyperbole? >> well, it is what the russians say. it is what putin says. it is what russian propaganda says. they repeat themselves. they periodically threaten poland and the baltic states, and sometimes for fun they threaten the united kingdom or the united states. they say all the time, and so if they are saying it all the time, maybe we should take it seriously. >> believe what people tell you. and applebaum with the atlantic. thank you for your wisdom. really appreciate it. >> thank you. that is our show for tonight. now it is time for the last