with our encampment being here on the lawn. let the people who come and visit columbia see we have this protest that is ongoing and hear our message. that is clearly not what the administration wants. they made very clear this morning in the notice they sent out that commencement is going forward and in particular because this is a community of kids, who didn't get their typical graduation in 2020, for most of them they were virtual or had sort of strange outdoor graduations that were more than six feet apart from friends and classmates. that is not what they want to do here. they want to have the typical commencement here at columbia, one way or another. >> the covid class doesn't want to have a virtual graduation again. thank you very much. and that is going to do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi there, everyone. welcome to monday. it is all happening.

4:00 in new york. as we kick off what will be the second week of witness testimony in donald j. trump's hush money trial. it is important to take stock and remind ourselves, it is not normal. to have an ex-american president stand trial as a criminal defendant. it is not normal for that same criminal defendant to also be the republican party's current presumptive nominee for the upcoming presidential election. we learned a great deal from david pecker during his time on the witness stand last week about exactly how the catch and kill scheme that was used to benefit donald trump when he was running for president the first time worked. it worked by burying stories that would have been harmful to his reputation. we heard from trump's long time assistant rhona graf that stormy daniels and karen mcdougal, the women paid to keep their stories quiet ahead of the election, were both named in trump's rolla

dex. so this week we expect to hear new evidence and new testimony from new witnesses further detailing the criminal conspiracy to influence what voters thought of donald trump ahead of the 2016 presidential election. we also expect to hear more about the payments that trump's former lawyer and fixer michael cohen made to hide his ex-boss's extramarital affairs with the adult film star and the former playboy playmate. tomorrow we're going to hear from gary farrow and after that it is anyone's guest. from trump's former spokesperson hope hicks to karen mcdougal or stormy daniels. any one them could possibly take the stand as the week goes on. a former assistant district attorney in the manhattan d.a. office writes this morning in "the new york times" that although the headlines are salacious, the core of this case, the criminality is simple and serious. writing it is an important and straightforward case. albeit workman like and

unglamorous. after the smoke mas cleared it is easy to see why the prosecution asolid and legitimate. it is about preventing wealthy people from using businesses to commit crimes and hide from accountability. accountability is something that trump has successfully evaded for many years now. marking this criminal trial as a potential rare moment of real consequence for the ex-president. and underscoring the challenge before the prosecution. that we will see more and more of as the trial continues, to present to the jury a compelling story of the alleged criminality by donald j. trump. this is a historic criminal trial of an ex president beginning the second week is where we begin the hour with our favoret experts and friends. with us at the table, reporter sue craig is here. plus former top official for the department of justice and msnbc legal analyst andrew weissmann is back. and also at the table, the host

of the on brand podcast donnie deutsche and rounding us out former senator and co heft of how to win 2024 podcast, claire mccastile is here for the hour. most days i start with you. and not what is in the notebook from a day of sort of frantic note taking, from what is happening on the witness stand. but as you got home and the week, what did you reflect on having covered this story and this potential act of criminal fraud for as long as you have, what sort of stuck with you? >> well, i have to say, when we sort of finished on friday, the contours of the case were known to us and we've heard them and i think what was powerful at the end of the last week in the first testimony was actually hearing it from david pecker, if i have to pick one thing. how he, himself, detailed it. it is one thing to hear and we knew that the national enquirer

pays for stories and kill stories but to hear that he was involved in this conspiracy, the conversations that he had with donald trump, the conversations that he had with michael cohen, and just this brazen agreement that they have had to catch the story and kill them and then to write positive stories on donald trump. and i think most shocking to me and maybe it is because i'm a newspaper reporter was the idea that the trump organization and michael cohen was a lawyer there, that he was coming up with negative stories about the people running against donald trump and then he was sending them over to the national enquirer where, quote/unquote, they would embellish them. i thought that was shocking to hear it from him. >> i have the same feeling and it was for me what cassidy hutchinson was like as a witness to donald trump's conduct on january 6, right. and it was the combination of both pecker's testimony and

having the chance to talk a couple of times with you, to lock lynn cartwright, there was unease about the election interference. there were texts that at least he could pardon us for our election interference crimes. >> and to hear from lochlan and i think unease is being gentle. he was going crazy. >> hair on fire. >> his hair was on fire. he's a dogged reporter, i've known him for a long time and he was thinking, we got the story of the election, we have the karen mcdougal story and a playmate who is sleeping with a presidential candidate. it was manna from heaven and they had the story but the intent was not to run it but to kill it. and i think hearing it from the principles is what is so powerful and i imagine that it resonated with the jury like it did with us. >> and there is something about covering the trump story for as

long as i have that makes me deeply cynical, about the prospect of accountability. and in some ways, hearing pecker talk about his various immunity deals, here we go again. everybody gets a deal. nobody ever holds trump accountable. but it did feel foundational to really tell a story to the jury from the person who entered into the conspiracy with trump himself. it is pecker and trump and i don't mean this with any disrespect to michael cohen, i don't know if he'll take it that way, he's really midlevel. >> this is the way you put a case together. and sometimes you are giving unity to someone and you hold your nose and you think this is what i need to make a case. but it is worth remembering, yes, david pecker got a deal of the century, but he was also first in. and sometimes that is what happens. with michael cohen, he has been held to account. and for all of the talk about

how long it has taken, there is accountability now. it remains in the hands of the jury. but that is what we're seeing. i find what is so interesting, listening to your conversation, you're reacting as journalists to how shocking it is because you're hearing a journalist, albeit down market, but somebody saying something that is so an anthema to what we think to how we work. and my reaction, very much as a criminal prosecutor, criminal defense lawyer and very much in the mechanics of it. and thinking about -- >> a mechanical analysis. because you were both here every day last week. and i think that you both really i think brought a granular understanding of the significance to the viewers. but when you had a chance to sit back, what was taken with you? >> over the weekend, i've been thinking about what is going to happen?

and there is sort of two things to put you in my head. one, this trial team is the trial team that did the trump org tax case. there were convictions and if you remember, everyone was -- that went like lightning. people were like, oh, my god, it is in and out. i think they're going to do the same. but for michael cohen, that is going to be a slow witness because cross is going to be very, very long. as it should be. if i were the defense lawyer, just mechanically, you want the jury to be thinking the case rises and falls on them. but he think you're going to see a litany of witnesses. hope hicks who is going to give corroborating detail that is going to be extremely useful for david pecker and for stormy daniels. and then there is going to be other small cooperating witnesses like what we have with gary farrow on the stand now. and i think you'll have that and michael cohen and then see the paralegal from the d.a. office put in a whole bunch of

telephone records and business records and emails and lots and lots of corroborating details and that is going to set up a time line and then that will be done. i think it is going to be fast. i think that the defense just to be fair, i think they did about as much as you could do. they made some missteps that happens a lot on cross. just remember, they're dealt a hand. there is only so much they could do. they didn't have a complete narrative, there are some themes that i think they're going to come back to which is i think they're going to try and say that all of this with stormy daniels was a private side deal between michael cohen and stormy daniels's lawyer, they intimated that and i think we're going to hear that again. good luck. but remember -- >> he wasn't running for president and had to retract. >> but as i said, i'm in the small board, look at it as a professional matter, what tools do they have and what are they

trying to do. and that is -- i don't fault them. but that is what they -- donald trump, like any defendant, is entitled to good representation and making his arguments. we'll see how much that plays out. >> well, i was just wondering, on the weekend, i was wondering to get your take, i was wondering if they are going to call stormy daniels and karen mcdougal. i wander where you have your legal mind about it. >> it is not necessary -- it is not necessary to know whether in fact it was true or not true, because if you just look at what the opening was, with respect to the three pieces, the doorman, karen mcdougal and stormy daniels, those are the three pieces and everyone agrees including the d.a., that the doorman story was false. but it doesn't mean that you don't have the motive to suppress it. because you don't want the risk

of how it is going to play out. now the one reason it might be useful to put it on, you might have a stronger motive to suppress it if you know it is true. because it is harder to squash it if you're -- if it is a true story. so, i think that they might, but it would be, again, those wouy come in. >> in and out. i think the same way that i think gary farrow is going to be on and off. the assistant for trump, the executive assistant who has a lot of information was there to just say, look at his rolodex. >> donnie, i think in terms of trump's brand, this is the only criminal case that he's not running on, right. and these are the only facts that he's running from. he stands in front of the courthouse waving around papers but these are not facts that he

embraces even though the aedge willed relationships between stormy and karen go right to his sort of greatest funny bone an that is his own virility. >> i wanted to back to the letter of the d.a. and talked about privilege. there is an interesting thing happening. it is separate, the immunity case in the supreme court. but you could bring those two things together and kind of say, look, here is what our system said. this is a privileged person that tried to take advantage of the system in a way you can't and he's not above the law in a way that you aren't. and i think that there is interesting traction with the two meanings, assuming they do prevail in the way that they we they will. but to your point, this is -- i'm going to say it again, anybody who thinks this is making him empathetic or rallying his troops. no, he's sitting there neutered, powerless for the first time in his life and he can't do and say what he wants. and seeing him like that is very shrunken. and he looks beat up.

and i think he's branded a convicted felon. >> and he knows that. and what you have in front of you potentially as witnesses, i mean hope hicks, karen mcdougal, stormy. these are all women in different categories that he is intimate with in one way or another. hope is a close adviser known to steam his pants while he was wearing them. a very trusted consigliere. i think it is in the cory lewandowski's book. let me show you the way that karen mcdougal speaks tenderly and talking about hope hicks denying what she described as a love affair with donald trump. >> i guess, you know, some people seeing this are not going to believe that you had a relationship, hope hicks has said categorically you did not have a relationship, there is no truth to this.

when you heard that denial, what did you think? >> well, i think someone is lying and i could tell you it is not me. it is a little hurtful but at the same time i have to understand, like, if he were to have told hope that he didn't do it, i guess i understand because he's trying to protect his family, his image, things like that. but it was definitely a little like, wow, you're going to lie about that. okay. >> donnie, this is someone for whom the relationship with trump and this is hard to imagine, but it was for her a meaningful experience. >> yeah. look, that is a very credible person telling a credible story there. and what is interesting, i thought you were going to go someplace and how we talked about how michael cohen is a precarious witness. but it is all of the woman coming forward and i think there is a certain power in that and i think each one of them adds on to the other one. and i -- there is something to be said, i said this in my

forms, whether it is women voting based on abortion issue, that women will be his downfall in a real way. >> to claire, this is reporting about hope hicks steaming his pants. i wasn't making that up. it was from "the washington post" in 2018. in his campaign, let trump be trump, cory lewandowski described hope hick's responsible. when we landed it was his job to machine him. get the machine, he would yell. and hope hicks would take out the steamer and start steaming mr. trump's suit while he was wearing it. she would steam the jacket first and then sit in a chair in front of him and steam his pants. so that person who he trusted enough with hot steam while he was wearing his pants, will be on the stand. >> yeah, and listen, she's going to be a very important witness. maybe the most important witness. because i have a feeling she will testify factually and i think that the facts will not be

good for donald trump. it is interesting, andrew talks about when you hear testimony in a trial and when you read transcripts of trials, a prosecutor, one of the things that you look for are the moments in a trial that you want to pick out to put in your closing argument. because they are so persuasive. and pecker had one of those moments. and i'll tell you what that moment was. it was on redirect, when the prosecutor had him admit that really in essence, the reason he was testifying that day was because he was afraid he was going to go to jail for what he did. he knew he committed a crime. he acknowledged he committed a crime. so when you have somebody who is essential to the fraudulent business records, as david pecker was, i mean, he was foundational to it, when he admits hey, i took a deal because i knew i could go to jail, that is something that the prosecutor could use, really

powerfulfully in a closing statement and along with reminding the jury that the defense lawyers said donald trump was a family man. >> and claire, to your point, now the jury is looking at two men who -- one would went to jail and would have gone to jail and neither of them are running for president or neither of them have sex with stormy daniels or karen mcdougal. there is a common sense piece in this that maybe the unindicted co-conspirator will know. i have to sneak in a break. we'll do that on the other side into plus over on earth two an indictment for trying to overturn an election actually helps you get a new job. how republicans in arizona are doubling down on the big lie. and later in the broadcast, buries within a funny joke was a call from president biden to meet the moment and take seriously the threat to democracy posed by donald t to

democracy posed by donald trump. we'll show you those highs and lows if you will and bring you all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. continu. don't go anywhere today. [announcer] introducing allison's plaque psoriasis. she thinks her flaky gray patches are all people see. otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis. allison! over here! otezla can help you get clearer skin and reduce itching and flaking. with no routine blood tests required. doctors have been prescribing otezla for over a decade. otezla is also approved to treat psoriatic arthritis. don't use otezla if you're allergic to it. serious allergic reactions can happen. otezla may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. some people taking otezla had depression, suicidal thoughts or weight loss. upper respiratory tract infection and headache may occur. ♪♪

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so i hired body doubles. 30,000 followers tina in a boutique hotel. or 30,000 steps tina in a mountain cabin. ooh! booking.com booking.yeah you gave us the journal that you kept. would you write down on days you saw him, you would -- you wouldn't write his full name. >> no i either called him t or dt. because if anyone found this, i wouldn't want to expose myself or him. >> so there is a number of days here, it looks like dozens over the course of time, with a small little dt and sometimes they're hard to see.

>> i purposely kind of chicken scratched a lot on there because i know what i'm writing. to this day i still do that with my notes and where i'm at and who i talk to. i did write that down. so, did i see him quite a few times, quite a bit? absolutely. we spent a lot of time together. >> and did you tell friends about it at the time? >> i did. i told a few trends and i told my sister. i told my mother that i knew him and he walked on a regular basis but i told her we were just friends and she scolded me because i know it is only friends because he's married, yes, i understand. >> and andrew weissmann and i want to bring claire back in on this as well, strategically, she's a witness that goes to his motive and wishes him no ill will but she's not one would had to receive immunity to talk. >> also, i mentioned, she and stormy daniels are exhibits.

in addition to being a -- you could understand the story. but if you put them on, it is not necessary, but if you put them on, you are showing the jury this is what he did not want the public to know. and at a critical time in the campaign. so it is very palpable that you have this information. so i think there is -- i think you will see them. i do think that it will be interesting to see sort of the reaction to this because you do have this sort of man, whether it is michael cohen, whether it is the lawyers for these women, whether it is david pecker or donald trump, all having a scheme about how to control them. and to control the information. >> claire, at the end of the day, this is about cheating and donald trump was so desperate for it to not look like he needed russia's help.

right. this all gets at his most vulnerable sort of political underbelly. and i wonder what you think the opportunity is on the other side to show that he -- he had to -- he thought he had to cheat. >> well, cheating has been part of his life for as long as he's been out of high school. whether it is at golf, whether it is in business, whether it is the way he lies, and, remember, i think you need to remember what the jury's job is. the jury's job is fairly limited. what they're supposed to do is judge the credibility of the witnesses, determine who is telling the truth, and then take that those facts that they believe are true and use the instructions of the law that the judge will give them and they make a decision whether the burden has been met. whether the law, it is been proven beyond a reasonable

doubt. but judging the credibility of the witnesses is something that i think sometimes people lose sight of. because when someone is on the stand, and they have the ability to tell the truth, it makes a big difference in how they testify. they don't have to be careful. they don't have to be cautious or say things that ruin their credibility with the jury if they just tell the truth. and i could remember so many witnesses, relax, you only have to tell the truth. an that is what she could do, just tell the truth and she will be credible. i predict karen mcdougal will be very credible. i don't envy those trying to cross-examine her. what are they going to do? say she made it up because this is a family man. they're credibility is at stake too. and i think they've damaged their credibility. so i think she's also a very important witness if they decide to call her, which is, as andrew said, they technically don't need to. >> sue, your colleagues, maggie

haberman writes this, trump's career long ready, aim, fire and stream on social media, on television, to newspaper reporters, to rally attendees, could now be held against him by prosecutors and a judge who has genuine power over him. eventually the case could threaten not only trump's freedom, but also the essential tenants of a like life long ethos ever present in a pattern, convenient disregard for the truth and stubborn insistence that his adversaries are always acting in bad faith. >> right. and you saw, and i'm thinking ahead to the hearing we're going to have on wednesday morning, or sorry on thursday morning on the gag order. just the life long disregard he has had for words and for truth and i finally think some of this may come home to roost on thursday where he is facing potential penalties and from there is could escalate.

think it is going to be very interesting to see exactly how the judge yields that. i know and raw talked about possible different remedies that could come in addition to fines. maybe there is a -- his lawyer has put over his account, his social media account so that there is limitations and guardrails on what he could say. but i think it is very interesting on thursday morning. >> that could be a fun job. you could go to hell or you could be in church at donald trump's social media. >> think about judge engoron in the new york attorney generals case did. there are now two babysitters, there are two monitors, corporate monitors so that is a model for what could happen here, which is saying, all of this sort of texting and truth social has to be overseen by someone. >> donnie, do you need to take

that? [ laughter ] it is not michael cohen. >> automatic sorry, excuse me. >> the only thing that the judge could do is say, you know what, i'm going to find you responsible for it and find that you have violated that gag order multiple times and, you know what, i'm going to sentence you later. i want to see what happens and then also if there is a conviction here, he could also say, i want you to know and you're lawyers could tell you this, that your conduct and the violations of the gag order are relevant to the sentence that i'm going to give you. and so you're thinking about what does going to -- the main goal here is how do you push him back so that he's not threatening jurors and witnesses. exactly. and so all of those are, if you don't want to jail him yet, and i think the judge probably doesn't want to do that yet and

create that distraction, i think donald trump desperately wanted that to be the story. because he -- he does not want the story to be david pecker' testimony which was for all of the reasons that you're talking about his cheating, he wants to be look at how unfair this is. so there are tools in the toolkit for him. >> donnie, let me ask you. all of this is happening and in a legal context. we have andrew and claire and others to help us make sense of it. in terms of behavior, it is understandable. he's so unreliable that he has someone in charge of his phone. that is like 10-year-olds on the first experienced with social media. they turn their phone in at the end of the day. there is something so disqualifying, not just about being present, but about being in charge of anything or anyone. about how not just the facts of the crimes that have him on

standing trial criminally, but on his conduct as a defendant. >> you know, ironically, the thing that will win this election for biden and i'll come back to this, if we get more and more trump. that is what happened in 2020. more trump is out there. weird and business ard way, and this makes him look neutered, it is keeping him quiet. i want it to be fast and get him back out there in front of the public eye because it is easy to kind of dismiss or in a new cnn poll, they had him out there and so i like gag orders but i want to hear his voice out there and the more he shows himself, the more biden has a better chance of winning. so, he's in this little encampment now that contains him. let's get him back out on the streets. >> so your going back tomorrow, you will be there. >> early tuesday morning. >> and you'll be back here to report. >> if you'll have me.

>> and i have a question. handicap at it point. it is early in the case, but you obviously know this better than anybody. how are you feeling about things? >> david pecker was a wonderful witness and it was a smart strategy to start with him. as you talked about last week. i mean, having it understood that this is the other principle that you have donald trump as a principal and david pecker and they were making the deal and you it makes michael cohen a staffer and it was a smart move and he did well. the defense laid certain little easter eggs that they'll try to capitalize on. i think they're going to say that michael cohen had a side deal with keith davidson and they did this on his own. >> for a home equity loan for. >> i'm not a lawyer. but you have to -- you have to benefit in some way. the guy ended up in solitary. >> right. >> nicolle, this is why the defense will never have you as a

juror. >> yeah. anyway. you'll be back tomorrow. >> i'll be back. >> andrew weissmann, thank you. and we couldn't do this. donnie and claire stick around for the hour. coming up after the break, a stunning moment at a debate in georgia that shows that the republican party is dead as a political party. it is just a cult now. we'll show you. ghter and i finay had that conversation. oh, no, not about that. about what comes next in life. for her. i may not be in perfect health, but i want to stay in my home, where my family visits often and where my memories are. i can do it with help from a prep cook, wardrobe assistant and stylist, someone to help me live right at home. life's good. when you have a plan. ♪ ♪ today, at america's beverage companies,...

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i have a question for all of you, the former president continues to insist that the last election was stolen. let's put a fine point on this. a show of hands. who here thinks that president trump was the rightful winner of the election in georgia in 2020? okay. all of you. >> they don't tell the whole story. every single candidate to be the republican party nominee to run in the georgia's third congressional district rushed to endorse not just trump but the lies he told. that led to a deadly insurrection and the eager embrace of the election conspiracies now clearly a prerequisite to be elected in republican party politics. we'll move over to arizona. where just last week, state senator jake hoffman was indicted along with 17 others for their roles as fake electors for arizona in trump's scheme to

steal the 2020 election and over turn his defeat in arizona. on saturday, less than a week after those charges were announced, hoffman was elected as an national committeeman for the republican national committee and now the second person in leadership at the rnc who has been indicted in the effort to scale the 2020 election in arizona. alongside the rnc senior counsel for so-called election integrity, christina bob. you couldn't make this stuff up. joining our conversation, contributor and columnist charlie sykes and donnie and claire are still with us. charlie, it is not accurate to say everyone in the republican party is a conspiracy theorist. but as with racist, all of the conspiracy theorists are republicans. >> i've seen that out of georgia it was cult like. an think about, to your point, that not every republican goes along with this. think about the politics in georgia. you have the republican governor of republican, brian kemp and

the republican secretary of state brad raffensperger, and you have leading election expert like gabe sterling, all of whom are republicans who have said over and over again, donald trump did not win the state of georgia. we have one audit after another. and yet this is what the cult requires in every one them raised their hand, even though this is been refuted over and over again by the fact. but also by other republicans. which makes this -- i think a particularly revealing moment. >> you no he what is amazing to me, claire, is that the deniers are the losers, right. kari lake, big giant loser. mastriano, big giant loser. oz, a big giant loser. blake masters, do i have that right? the denies are the biggest losers. so put the danger of the -- michael fanone sat here and the lies ruined his life forever.

they're not just lies in a vacuum. they led to the first ever violent transition of power in america. they -- mike pence went running for his life. officers are suffering from physical and mental and emotional injuries forever. so the lies aren't just fictions and fabrications and lies they tell, just to get each other off. they're dangerous deadly lies and they make people lose elections. what is the spell that they're all under? >> it is did, well that is a really good question. i think we've spent hours together trying to figure that out. but there is one thing that appears to be true. and i think it is something that we have to remember. that is that when you get indicted, for something that you did in furtherance of the big lie, it helps you in the republican party of today. in the bat crazy republican party of today. this guy gets indicted and that is probably why he got elected. national committeeman because he

was indicted. prosecution is now a badge of honor in this crazy tale. and, you know, you look at the trial. and you -- the stunning testimony that journalists were burying stories that would have been very interesting to their readers that were factual. you know what the problem with that is, nicolle, half of the country, trump is convinced them that every journalist does that. that is the norm. he's convinced these people that elections are fraudulent. he's convinced them that journalist is rigged. he's convinced them that people who are working for the government and doing a good job and are not political are somehow the bad guys. and they are firmly in that camp and they're not going anywhere. the question is, are there enough of them to elect him president? i think not and i know i certainly hope not. >> claire, i want to make you some hot lemon water with a whole jug of honey in it. >> i know. it is been worse. i couldn't talk at all on

friday. >> i want you to get better. donnie, i want to get at this idea of self-loathing and i'm not qualified to diagnose it but i want to illustrate it with some mitch mcconnell sound. >> the voters of my party across the country have made a decision as the republican leader, the senate obviously, i'm going to support the nominee of our party. >> but you have taken stands on issues you feel are of -- of strong national security interest and morally imperative. that was your argument on ukraine. >> the issue is what kind of influence,ine if i was chosen to get involved in the presidential election, what kind of influence would i have. >> you're one of the most top republicans. >> i'm the republican leader of the senate. what we do here is try to make law. >> so, let's put the policy aside, right where they differ on foreign policy and infrastructure, but he smeared that man's wife as a racist

smear. there is a pathological self-loathing shared by these republican men where they can't simply do anything approximating the right thing when it comes to trump. >> i want to talk as a man. and i don't want to be sexist here but i have to kind of attack these guys' manhood. i don't know how they look at themselves as men. kwiferringly -- like bill barr. he just gave an interview where he's still going to vote for trump and ted cruz, they go after his father that he was involved in jfk -- where is your sense of manhood. and i don't know if it is not political to say and particularly if someone like bill barr, you're not getting another job anyway. don't you want to be on the right side of the history. >> explain it to me. >> i just think that these -- what we didn't realize is that there are a lot of weak people who were drawn to power. here is my psychological --

they're drawn to power, so they're weak, and when it emperor doesn't have any clothes on, you see who these people are. and liz cheney, a woman by the way. and mitt romney. and i don't know how they got to their loved ones, and they all have daughters and granddaughters and son and how they face them as men. i don't know how to put it any other way. just pathetic. >> it is. we do have enough evidence charlie and adam kinzinger said that all of the compelling witnesses in the january 6 investigation were women. not men. >> no, and obviously they shame the men who went along with all of this. i agree with donnie. this is a rolling amazement, don't you have any pride whatsoever. but they have internalized and they have internalized this idea that party loyalty is more

important than what is in the interest of the country. and because they have the critical mass looking around and everyone else is demanding same sort of loyalty, they've talked themselves into thinking they're better off going along with this rather than standing by themselves. but when you're mitch mcconnell, and you're 81 years old and you're going into the twilight of your career, why do you feel the need to bow the knee to smup who -- he has no illusions who donald trump is. he point out that he insulted his wife in the worst possible way and attacked mitch mcconnell. mitch mcconnell knows exactly what role he played on january 6. and you wonder if at the twilight of your career you could not stand and do the right thing, then what does that say about you? and again, i -- we have spent years trying to find the backbone and the spine of these men, and you know, if this trial goes on, think about what david

pecker did to marco rubio and ted cruz and what they've said about lindsey graham and they're all there kissing donald trump's toes. it is beyond pathetic. >> so much of marco rubio around with the covers. i think they were first out of the gate to endorse him when he said he was running again and he literally defamed both men. we'll keep searching for answers. thank you. >> thank god for women. >> amen. claire, thank you my friend. and feel better. charlie will be back later in the broadcast. another break for us. we'll be right back. k. it's a beautiful... ...day to fly. wooooo!

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these are scenes from earlier this afternoon at columbia university in new york city. after columbia's president announced this morning that columbia, quote, will not divest from israel. the university began distributed notices to protesters in the gaza solidarity encampment saying if you don't leave by 2:00 p.m., will you be suspended pending further investigation. demonstrators voted to stay past 2:00. according to campus reporters, as that 2:00 p.m. deadline approached police police were s outside of the campus and students appeared to pack up certain portions of the encampment including food. additional individuals including faculty gathered, encircling the lawn. dozens of similar pro-palestinian encampments have

popped up on college campuses around the country. some of them resulting in suspensions and arrests. covering all this for us, my colleague and friend, nbc's antonia hylton who's live at columbia university. antonia, tell us what you're seeing. >> reporter: hey, nicolle. well, i am at the encampment. and as you can see, it is very much still intact. i haven't seen a single tent taken down. and that is what the administration wanted to see by 2:00 p.m. today. they released this statement to the entire columbia community, saying that they would not divest from israel, that the talks with the students had essentially fallen apart, and that they wanted commencement to go forward as planned. so they wanted students to voluntarily pack everything that you see here up. but they refused. and in fact, what we saw happen instead was around 12:45, 1:00 tons of students who are not even involved in the encampment came here to the center of campus and joined their classmates for hours, they were walking in circles, marching,

chanting together. and this seems to have really inspired the movement in a way to grow. what i'm also hearing from the students who are part of the core group that has stayed in this encampment night after night is that seeing the images of what we've seen transpire around the rest of the country with encampments from massachusetts to indiana and tennessee to california, in a way it's made them feel like they have to dig their heels in. in a way they feel they inspired all this and so they can't be the first to stop. so around 2:00 p.m. they expected to see either the nypd or columbia's private police force show up, engage with them in some way or another, or they thought some administrators would at least come by and say something to them. but it has been silent. and in a way that silence is eerie. now faculty and students are starting to wonder what might happen tonight, what might happen in the early morning. they just can't believe that the administration would let their own deadline go by and not follow through on their word. so we will see. but our team is going to be here

on the ground late, nicolle. >> the story has developed so quickly. but what are you understanding about jewish students on campus? has anything been done to make them feel more safe? >> reporter: in some cases the administration has had dialogue with jewish students. this campus hosted speaker mike johnson, who spoke out on behalf of jewish students here and also met with them in person behind closed doors. but many of the jewish students that i speak to still feel that they are isolated by the protests or in some cases that they've been the target of threats and harassment. and at times it's been really chaotic and difficult for them to tell the administration exactly what's happened and what ways in which they need support because there is an entirely other protest that takes place almost every single day outside of the columbia gates and it involves new yorkers from all over the place who do not have any affiliation with columbia. and so when students, you know, run their errands or they go to a restaurant, they interact with

people who at times say incredibly antisemitic and terrible things to them. and the school hasn't really done much about that. so there continues to be this question about security and a feeling from both sides now, both the pro-palestinian students and the pro-israeli students that the school is failing them. >> antonia hylton, so lucky to have you up there. thank you so much for your reporting on this incredibly fraught moment. another break for us. we'll be right back. and experiences for hundreds of thousands of fans with reliable 5g connectivity. now's the time to accelerate your business. one in five children worldwide are faced with the reality of living without food, no family dinners, no special treats, not enough energy to play.

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andres, is resuming operations in gaza today with a local palestinian team delivering food to address widespread hunger there. nearly a month after seven aid workers were killed in an israeli air strike. the idf has taken responsibility for that attack, calling it, quote, a grave mistake. in a statement announcing the return to operations world central kitchen said it would also be opening a third field kitchen named damian's kitchen for one of the workers who was killed in the strike. coming up for us, with the ex-president and america's wannabe autocrat mounting a third run for the presidency, this year's white house correspondents' dinner took a more serious turn. we'll show you, next. erious tur. we'll show you, next ase skyrizi is the first il-23 inhibitor that can deliver remission and visibly improve damage of the intestinal lining. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. liver problems may occur in crohn's disease. control of crohn's means everything to me.

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i'm campaigning all over the country. pennsylvania, georgia, north carolina. i've always done well in the original 13 colonies. >> trump's so desperate he started reading those bibles

he's selling. then he got to the first commandment, you shall have no other gods before me. that's when he put it down and said, this book's not for me. >> age is the only thing we have in common. my vice president actually endorses me. [ cheers and applause ] >> the president had a good night. hi again, everybody. it's 5:00 now in new york. it's one of the nicer traditions about washington. for a night at least the president of the united states dines and then tries to entertain assembled members of the free press. the annual white house correspondents' dinner is one of the symptoms, one of the signs of a healthy functioning democracy. a one night only hiatus from the normal, an opportunity to suspend those more formal aspects of the relationship between a president and the news media. it's a coming together.

at its core the president doing everything right celebrates and honors the free press. behind the levity, though, there was something darker, a darker undercurrent, if you will, and a point that the president had to make. and it was more profoundly serious. because at this exact time next year, depending what happens in november, seven months from now, we can't say for certain that there would even be a white house correspondents' dinner or even a free press or even a white house press corps. right? you don't have to have one. could be another norm trump blows up. the stakes of the 2024 election are a living, breathing subplot of this year's white house correspondents' dinner. it came up in the jokes, came up in the inherent contrast between president joe biden, there in the room, and the coup-plotting openly autocratic modeling of himself donald trump, who wants to replace him.

the ever-hilarious superstar colin jost of "weekend update" on "saturday night live" finished his remarks on a serious note as well. he told a story about why his grandfather, outside president joe biden's demographics, voted for biden. >> my grandfather, a staten island firefighter, voted for you, mr. president. [ applause ] he voted for you in the last election that he ever voted in. i'm sure someone else will vote twice in this election using his name. but that's just how the democratic machine works. [ laughter ] he voted for you, and the reason that he voted for you is because you're a decent man. >> decency. president joe biden, meanwhile, finished his remarks on a serious note as well.

watch. >> the defeated former president has made no secret of his attack on our democracy. he said he wants to be a dictator on day one. and so much more. he tells supporters he is their revenge and retribution. when in god's name have you ever heard another president say something like that? and he promised a bloodbath when he loses again. we have to take this seriously. eight years ago we could have written it off as just trump talk. but no longer. not after january 6th. so tonight i'd like to make a toast. to a free press. to an informed citizenry. to an america where freedom and democracy endure. god bless america. >> i've seen that toast a bunch of times. but it landed very differently this year. because depending what happens in november, seven months from

right now, this time next year i might not be sitting here. there might not be a white house correspondents' dinner or free press. will our democracy fall apart immediately without it? the real threat looms larger. a candidate with outward disdain not just for a free press but for all of our freedoms and for the rule of law itself. it's where we start the hour with some of our favorite experts, friends and reporters. writer and editor for protect democracy, amanda carpenter's here. plus nbc news white house correspondent mike memoli joins us. and former congressman and msnbc political analyst david jolly's here. with me at the table, princeton university professor and distinguished political scholar eddie glaude is here. mike memoli, i have been to that dinner a bunch of different times and i've been when the country's been through a lot. i was there after 9/11. i was there after journalists suffered extraordinary tragedies, loss of life for doing their job at incredibly perilous moments and incredibly

dangerous places around the world. but this was up there with those moments where the president made a pretty serious point and it's not hyperbole to say that the guy i'm running against doesn't value any of you -- well, almost none of you. or what you do. >> yeah, nicolle, it's really an interesting moment for the biden presidency and for the biden campaign because at a moment when he does need to be getting his message out to the american public it's very hard to break through and not just because of the different fragmented environment in which we all consume media but also because we can't overlook the fact that the former president of the united states, the potential next president of the united states, is on criminal trial. but this was an important moment that the biden team really did want to seize on. i spoke with people involved in writing this speech before and after the dinner, and they made several points. one is first the president is a man of character. they said look, donald trump never showed up to this dinner. president biden was there because he's willing to laugh at

himself. he's willing to make a joke at his own expense. and he's willing to -- and respects the free press and wants to make that point. but they also said -- made the point that humor done effectively is an excellent way of making a serious point and that the best humor is grounded in the truth. you saw that in some of the lighthearted comments the president made, the jokes, but also in that serious conclusion. and we've talked a lot too about the way in which the president maybe could take more questions from the likes of me and others in the press corps. kelly o'donnell did a masterful job in organizing this dinner, made a very powerful case for that. but the biden team, if you look at nbc news's own polling, is also grappling with the fact that if you look at people who read newspapers and watch network news biden has a significant advantage among those voters. but it's those people who aren't paying attention to the news or who are getting them from non-traditional sources who favor donald trump. so that was a moment for them to obviously break through to that audience as well. the biden team also, nicolle, feels like frankly the media's not living up to this moment.

so the president speaking about horse race coverage and focusing on gotcha moments is something where we need to do better at this moment. and it was a chance for him to challenge us directly on that. >> say more about that, mike memoli. what do you think about that? >> well, it's interesting. i'll give you an example, nicolle, just in the last two weeks. the first week of the stormy daniels hush money trial here was going on. i was on the road with the president in scranton and he gave what was to me a rather fascinating speech making the contrast very clearly with donald trump on issues that matter to voters, that we would traditionally focus on, like the economy. he talked about social security, entitlement programs. he talked about health care, what was at stake in this election. and that event frankly did not break through. it did not get covered. and then you look a week later when he talked about what's at stake in this election as far as reproductive care. he was in florida, a very key state to make that argument. it was also something that wasn't necessarily covered in traditional media. and so that's where the biden

team, i hear it all the time from them, wishes be that we weren't covering donald trump like the center of a legal drama but talking about what's at stake in terms of what his presidency would mean to the country. and the president you saw in a very humorous but also serious way on saturday night made that same argument. >> i think it's an argument they can make even more forcefully. amanda carpenter, i -- as mike memoli's reporting out, i know it's not about me, but we did cover the reproductive rights. i think we probably gave short shrift to the speech in scranton. here's what trump says he's going to do when it comes to the media. this is steve bannon and kash patel, two of his closest insiders. >> kash, i know you're probably going to be head of the cia. but do you believe that you can deliver the goods on this in pretty short order, the first couple months, so we can get rolling on prosecutions? >> yes. we will go out and find the conspirators not just in government but in the media, yes. we're going to come after the

people in the media who lied about american citizens, who helped joe biden rig presidential elections. we're going to come after you. >> okay. so because these guys are high on their own supply of i don't know what -- no one in the media lied to the american citizens to help joe biden rig a presidential election. bill barr, who inexplicably is going to vote for these clowns again, told us there was no fraud. i mean, the lies are so rapid-fire that they're disorienting. but you know, we should at this point take steve bannon very seriously. he seems to be calling the shots most consistently. and post-pardon i'm sure there's no limit of what he'll do for donald trump. but quote, we're going to come after you. kash patel's going to be in charge of the cia. and they're also signaling they're going to use the cia to come after american citizens. so everything's on the table. and i agree with the white house criticism as reported by mike memoli. reporters i think are wired to

cover politics like they don't have a dog in the fight. the moment's over. it died. right? it's over. and if they need any more evidence that it's over, they should be watching and reading the transcripts from the trump trial. because that's what he seeks to do. that's the model. that's the plan. >> yeah. i think -- you know, there's a way to bridge the threat to democracy between what trump is saying in his legal defense, what steve bannon is saying, and how biden can position it. this is sort of the way i see it. you know, donald trump is in court right now claiming absolute immunity. it's not the first time he's claimed it. we'll see if he's successful. but the idea that he is not accountable for anything and that that married with the fact that his full campaign platform is centered on this theme of retribution, i mean, the whole goal here, what steve bannon is talking about, what heritage project 2025 is talking about, what donald trump is talking about with his policy plans, are how to harness the powers of the

federal government behind an executive trump to exact that kind of retribution, whether it be against media outlets he doesn't like, disloyal republicans who didn't serve him well in his first administration, or even just to do -- advance their political gains. there was reporting last week about how they're looking at ways to make the federal reserve no longer fully independent. you know, we've seen this in other countries. once the executive takes control over the federal reserve and starts toying with that for political gain. but the way that biden can talk about this, it plays a lot into what bill barr said the other night about why he's going to support trump. he sat there and said on live tv he's going to support trump because clean energy regulations, immigration problems represented the real threat to democracy. that just is not true. that kind of frame is disingenuous because you can't put those two things on the same level. those are policy disagreements.

and we should have policy disagreements. but democracy is what allows us to have those disagreements. when you have an executive who's willing to use the powers of the government to exact revenge against political enemies, to pardon violent people and to start really rigging elections and putting the thumb on the hand of that scale, democracy goes away. and so the first task, whether you're a journalist, you're working for a president, republican or democrat, because those people take oaths too, we all have to be guardians of that democracy. maybe if i had to make one request of biden i do think he could have done a little more in that speech to talk about how journalists have a role to play because they are part of those guardrails in the way they can expose and explain what is really happening and how it affects people on an everyday level. >> memoli, you want to jump in on that? is there a sense that -- i mean, why do you think it wasn't more explicit in the way amanda's

talking about? >> the president was certainly also being respectful of his audience. i think he understands and wanted to communicate as clearly as he can, as politely as he can, his frustration with the fact that maybe there's too much talk about his age and too much focus on stumbles getting onto the steps of air force one and not enough about what's at stake in this election. i also think this was an opportunity for him to even saying so get this message out. and there's a reason why he's giving more interviews just like he did on friday to howard stern. it's an opportunity for the president in a more unfiltered way to have these more thoughtful conversations about the stakes in the election. and one reason, he made a joke about "the new york times" and the criticism of not giving an interview to them. but he remembers "the new york times" editorial board conversation when he was a candidate four years ago and the fact that he feels like he frankly wasn't getting a fair shake about the issues that matter the most in this election. i think that's going to be -- it's a continued source of

frustration for the whole white house team that does spill occasionally into public view. >> you know, david jolly, i would argue that the time for these things to happen in private is over. and i worked for a president who didn't like a lot of his coverage in the "new york times." but he never stopped talking to the "new york times." "the new york times" is actually doing some of the most extraordinary reporting on what amanda's talking about, what a second trump term would be like. let me show you what jonathan swann said on "the daily" this morning. >> it would allow them to reassign -- they estimated 50,000. people who they determined were involved in some way in affecting policy. and what this order would allow to do is effectively turn them into political appointees. so you are now schedule f. and so it would allow them to fire as many as 50,000 and replace them with their own people. now, i want to caveat this a little bit, which is that in the view of some of trump's closest

advisers, who really are steeped in this, they don't believe that they will need to fire necessarily that many people and replace them. they believe that the threat of the order will have a chilling effect and will force these people into line and will make them stop trying to slow-walk or obstruct. if you know that your head can be chopped off, you might salute a little quicker. >> now, jonathan swan has done some of the most incredible interviews of donald trump and knows his people, knows the people that will put these policies in effect. and he's right. it's the intimidation factor. right? threaten to in his words chop off everyone's head, and then you can bully and intimidate and threaten the entire federal workforce. but here's again who we're talking about. this is from "betrayal" by jon karl. while the country battled a pandemic and fears of an economic collapse, trump's most loyal lieutenant john mcentee would leave a witch hunt, brow-beating cabinet secretaries, scouring voting records and social media

accounts of officials high and low, conducting loyalty interviews and installing inexperienced people with questionable backgrounds into some of the most sensitive and important positions in the u.s. government. and as trump became increasingly isolated in his final year in office john mcen tee became his indispensable man. he was was playing a role invisible to the public. aiding and aabetting the president's efforts to overturn the 2020 election. as one senior trump official who worked with mcentee told me, quote, he became the deputy president. now, i believe news reporting at the time had told a story about how this individual didn't vet out and then came back and had this indispensable man role. that is the kind of person who will be in charge of doing what jonathan swan describes. and this is what's on the ballot. this is what people have to choose between. an end. nothing normal would ever be in the federal sort of executive

branch again. >> nicolle, look, there's a swiftness in the demand for loyalty in the policy-making space. you can look at the state of florida and how ron desantis kind of governed with an iron fist for four years. part of that would be fair game to whomever wins the white house. unless it begins to break the law. and where it begins to break the law i think is where the danger becomes. and as you mentioned, having a loyalty test and then using it to say help me to conspire to steal an election and stay in office, those are the stakes. and i would suggest the stakes are very clear and it doesn't require a trial by jack smith for the media to report it. donald trump conspired to use violence to stay in power and to prevent the peaceful transition of power. he would not accept a loss this november and would resort to violence again. that is fair to report. that does not require a criminal conviction. it requires independent thought and the intellect of a free press to report it. and i think that's what joe biden was getting at, saying look, don't take sides in terms

of a candidate in this race but stand up to the challenge of this moment. we are each custodians of this american experiment. and what the founding fathers envisioned was a healthy democracy in which the courts would work to stop an actor like donald trump, the congress and the senate would work with impeachment. we've seen neither one of those be able to stop donald trump. they also assumed that voters would use independent thought to stop a strongman wishing to lead an insurrection. but we're on the precipice of voters saying actually, i'm okay with running roughshod over this american experiment and allowing a strongman to come in. and so what joe biden was saying to the room saturday night is look, media, you also have your role. there's a moment for all of us in this and you don't bear exclusive responsibility. this is the moment for you to step up and make sure that the american people understand the stakes. the stakes are donald trump would shred the constitution and likely use violence to stay in

power, and the loyalty test that he expects of all the people around him would be to further that. this is the moment we face in november. i do think the press is up to this moment. but it requires that recognition. this is more than a horse-race. this is about what democracy means in november and what it looks like come next january. >> eddie, we always ask elected officials that come on what we can do better, how can we cover this better, what should we be focused on. i think there has to be a real recognition that this is not normal and a real humility. right? it's not necessarily our fault, but it is our responsibility to spend the next seven months shining a light, which is really all we get to do, where it actually matters. and something that i think is clear is that the federal investigations are going to lead to nothing. and we should level up with our audience. right? donald trump likely will not stand trial for the crimes of january 6th or mar-a-lago.

two crimes, two indictments that he barely denies. he's running on it. yeah, i took that stuff. presidential records act lets me do it. and mar-a-lago he's celebrating the most violent insurrectionists. it requires something different to put that information before the country absent a criminal process. and i think that's still something people trip over. it's disorienting. but i guess the flip side of it is the people with agency are the voters. we can be the jurors. how do you sort of strike that balance? >> well, i think we have to navigate some tensions within our own business i think, right? so i think part of our task is to flood the public domain with information that's relevant so that everyday ordinary people can make reasoned and informed decisions. if voters don't have information, if they're just drawing on these kind of fanciful notions, then they're not going to be able to engage in the kind of deliberation that democracy requires. our first task is to flood the field. they need all the information

they can, particularly about these folk, and they need it about not only the respectable autocrats but the interrogatory lo dooits. right? we need to understand that distinction. they're all in the same boat. then there's the other tension. and it's not information delivery, it's entertainment. >> it's a gut. >> it's the fact that there's a profit motive that drives in so many ways our industry. and we know that we are competing with stream. we know we're competing with social media. we know that the market, that the audience base is shrinking. and so there's this other competing motivation along with flooding this space with information, it also means are we economically viable as we try to play the role that the fourth estate should play. and i think those things often come into tension. >> no one's going anywhere. there's a lot more i want to show you from the weekend. and we'll have much more on growing fears about what trump is saying out loud. what he is saying he would do to

our country in a second administration. we'll continue this conversation about american democracy in peril after a very short break. plus, a story i've avoided for a few days, frankly because it's too upsetting. it's about south dakota's governor, kristi noem. she's a potential running mate for the guy we're talking about, the disgraced ex-president, wannabe autocrat. she is now facing a firestorm even inside her maga bubble. near-universal outrage for revealing and bragging about shooting and killing her 14-month-old puppy. the politics of cruelty will be our focus later in the hour. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. " continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. for three days only may 4th through 6th. get excited to get up to 80% off. ooo, yes. plus score free shipping on everything. [ grunting ] [ bell rings ] and surprise flash deals. all way day long! wayday starts may 4th so mark your calendar. and start filling your cart!

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sadly, these same republicans say they will vote for him again. >> you're voting for someone who you believe tried to subvert the peaceful transfer of power. >> the answer to your question is yes. >> you support him for president even though you believe he contributed to an insurrection. >> yeah. me and 51% of america. >> i said that i would support president trump if he were the nominee. and he obviously is going to be the nominee of our party. >> these republicans are suffering from partisan derangement syndrome. >> you don't see this as the definition of putting party over country? >> no. >> at this point in the ad i would tell you to call this number so you can help these deranged partisan republicans. but sadly they're too far gone. >> it's a great ad. it's from our friends at republican voters against trump. we're back with amanda, mike, david and eddie. two brilliant examples of exactly how you do it. what kaitlan collins did there,

what george stephanopoulos did was really important. but i think memoli, back to your point, what i feel like the temptation is is oh, it's a window into the trump voter. no, it isn't. you need a psychologist. it's a different story. it's not a political story. it's about debased -- trump called bill barr basically a fat toad. and then he went on tv and said i'll vote for him again. what is that? is it a political story? is it a psychological story? is it a sociological story? is it a cult story? where do you even begin to try to unpack that? >> well, i think it's all of the above, nicolle. and this is one of the biggest challenges for us covering this campaign. and it was frankly one of the i thought funniest parts of what my good friend colin jost said during his part of the dinner on saturday night, which is how do you explain the inexplicable, that this race is so close at a time when one person is on trial and one person is being president, right? and this is why i think -- why

the psychology of the voter is so fascinating, because we spend a lot of our time talking to voters at the events that we're covering. we spend a lot of time -- my colleagues garrett haake and vaughn hillyard on the trump beat and us on the white house team talk to voters attending these events. and there are a lot of other great reporters talking to voters showing up on election day in all these primaries. you about the voters that will decide this election are the ones we're not hearing from, frankly. >> that's right. >> that's the one -- those are the voters that the biden team is so very focused on at the moment. figuring ow how to talk to them, when to talk to them. the interesting things i keep hearing from them is when they engage with those voters, those most reluctant voters to talk about politics, they pull away at the sheer mention of the election. and so the theory of the case for the biden team is ultimately the voters who will decide this election will reluctantly start tuning in in the fall. that's when we'll start seeing the biden team elevating republicans who do support president biden, who are going

to do the right thing in their view like we saw in one day of the convention four years ago when john kasich was the keynote speaker. but at this point trying to understand the voter by only looking at those who are showing up at trump rallies probably doesn't give us the full picture of the american electorate at this point. >> it's a great note. it's a really, really smart point. and i think at this point when you hear them talking about putin they're almost post-trump derangement syndrome. they're in their putin love affair phase. do we have more of colin jost? i forgot he was a goodfriend of yours. do we have more of that? >> can we just acknowledge how refreshing it is to see a president of the united states at an event that doesn't begin with a bailiff saying "all rise." [ cheers and applause ] and i would like to point out it's after 10:00 p.m. sleepy joe is still awake. while donald trump has spent the past week falling asleep in court every morning.

though fox news said he was just being anti-woke. >> i love, by the way, that trump's two attacks on president biden are that he's a senile old man and a criminal mastermind. like i think you've got to pick one. personally, i don't know any criminal masterminds who bike to get ice cream. >> amanda carpenter, the jokes landed. but there is a common sense piece that i keep pushing the lawyers on this in the context of the criminal trial. all the attacks on michael cohen. like fine, michael cohen's michael cohen. but he didn't have the sex. he didn't run for president. and he's the only one that went and spent time in solitary. >> yeah. there is a disconnect between the consequence of following trump's direction and carrying out his demands because they were so loyal and the lack of accountability for donald trump. that's like -- this is the thing that we're going to have to

explain. i really like where you were taking the conversation earlier, that okay, we might not be able to look for the court for accountability but everyone can think of themselves as a juror going into the 2024 election. the standard for criminality is very high. but the standard for a president should be much easier to understand. just basics. don't order a mob to attack the capitol. don't lie in all your business documents. i mean, the list goes on and on. so i think it's very easy to have a conversation with regular people about what their standard should be regardless of what any supreme court justice might rule. >> yeah. and that's -- i think, david jolly, i love what mike memoli was saying. the idea that -- in terms of what we can do better. and i love having these conversations on tv because we grapple with it every day. but the humility involved in saying okay, yeah, maybe we've heard enough from these people that go to the rallies. right? they know what they're doing. and the people who tune in the

latest are tuning into events. they're tuning into the news. so i think part of the message has to be if you want to continue to have debates in this country, you want to debate whether taxes should be higher or lower or your health care should be more or less comprehensive or u.s. should give more or less dollars to our allies fighting our enemies so we don't have to, vote. vote for biden. because he's the only one who wants to continue to live in a democracy. where do you suggest -- and when do you suggest and how do you suggest that argument gets made? >> i think the media, this could be their finest moment. i don't worry about the media not being capable to handle this moment. i worry at times in any industry on both sides of the microphone i've often referred to the lazy reporter rule, which is kind of taking it for granted, right? following into the horse race analysis as opposed to reporting the stakes of protecting democracy. but let's go back to the kaitlan collins interview and the george stephanopoulos interview. the mcconnell sit-down. those were incredible moments where i don't know if i can say

blowhard on tv, nicolle, but i think it was clear when you're listening to barr and sure listening to sununu and mcconnell that they were being disingenuous liars who believe that they're the smartest person in the room when the rest of america realizes they're not, that they're actually just being hypocritical and they're engaging in a knowing abandonment of protecting democracy simply for partisan reasons when kaitlan collins said don't you think that this is putting party ahead of country and barr paused and said no. he's a liar. and it showed. it really, really showed. i think reporting the stakes of democracy, showing the hypocrisy and the danger to democracy of those who are surrounding themselves around donald trump and then also reporting on what's the impact to the economy and education and health care, the media absolutely can do this. they are doing it now. i think we're entering their finest moment. >> well, these are really awkward conversations to have. i thank every one of you for making it not awkward. it's really important. amanda carpenter, mike memoli,

david jolly, thank you. eddie glaude sticks around for the hour with me. when we come babbling, it is sickening and outrageous and outrageous. the kind of story you don't want to have to do on a show like this. but you have to because the heartless admission by south dakota governor kristi noem who's a possible trump running mate that she shot and killed her family dog is something that actually happened and she put out there. we'll have reaction to the story from some very good friends of the broadcast after a short break. good friends of the broadcast after a short break. [♪♪] how you feel can be affected by the bacteria in your gut. try new align probiotic bloating relief plus food digestion. it contains a probiotic to help relieve occasional bloating, plus vitamin b12 to aid digestion. try align probiotic. ( ♪ ♪ )

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this next story is about what's broken and rotten in our politics, and i think eddie glaude would add and in us. but it's also about something monstrous. if you have a little person around you might want to turn us down or send them to get a cookie. it's a deeply upsetting story, infuriating to everybody. south dakota governor kristi noem is still trying to defend and sugar-coat her own actions, that time she killed her family puppy. the outrage over the weekend to her telling of her own story was immediate, rather non-partisan, rather universal. to the horrifying announcement from someone who is in the running to be donald trump's vice president. according to "the guardian," noem explains in her new book, her heartless and inhumane murder of cricket, 20 years ago. cricket was a puppy. she was a year and two months old when noem shot and killed her. after leading her to a gravel

pit and deeming her in noem's words, quote, untrainable and, quote, less than worthless as a hunting dog. noem writes that she then went on to kill a family goat the same way after wounding the goat with the first shot. since the disclosure and the outrage that came with it noem has tried several times to excuse her decision to take the most horrific way out i guess or approach to handling a rambunctious puppy, the job she assigned it. but it's only making her look worse in the eyes of anyone human or humane. as she tried to argue that her handling of, quote, tough decisions on a farm somehow makes her a better person and leader with apparently more real honest and politically incorrect stories to share. yeah. joining the conversation two friends of the broadcast who are both dog lovers. founder of the site democracy

docket marc elias is here. and msnbc contributor charlie sykes is back with us. eddie's still with us. there are stories in politics, right? that we need help deciphering. and there are stories truly so monstrous that they explain themselves. and this to me, eddie glaude, feels like one of those. >> yeah. sometimes you get a telescope into people's character. so i'm a dog lover. my baby, she's 17 years old. she's a jack russell mix long hair, jack russell mix. the idea that you can deem the puppy worthless and then kill it. so imagine that rhetoric transferred to human beings. these people are deemed disposable. these folk are worthless. right? how will that heart -- >> untrainable. >> untrainable. how would that heart respond to this? and this takes us back to the last segment really quickly. we talked about how do we cover, what do we say? we have to tell the truth about who we are. as i've been telling you for all

these years. and not only do we have to do the things david jolly talked about, we're going to have to cover and confront something that we know that's out there, how profoundly selfish some of us are. how profoundly greedy some of us are. and how profoundly consumed with hatred some of us are. and if we understand that deadly and toxic combination, we can almost see it distilled in the actions of a woman who aspires to be the vice president, to kill an innocent puppy. for being just that. rambunctious and innocent. it's horrifying and monstrous. >> it's horrifying. i want to just give a little more context. marc, this story was out there last week. i ignored it on purpose because i found it unbearable. i've had three vischlas. they are hunting dogs. they're very spirited. and i imagine the dog she murdered had some of that.

the stories out there because she wrote about it in a book that is her long form resume to be picked as vice president. >> yeah. it tells you everything you need to know about the modern republican party under donald trump, that someone who wants to aspire to national office would purposely celebrate and put out for public consumption the idea that she murdered a puppy by shooting it. not a puppy that had done -- you know, that was suffering, not a dog that, you know, was at the end of life. but literally murdered a puppy because the dog was too rambunctious. and this she views as an example of making tough decisions. i mean, think about that for a second. she aspires to be in the white house, and shooting puppies is her resume builder for making tough decisions. and by the way, yes, there has been a bipartisan outcry. but i haven't heard donald trump outcry. i haven't heard donald trump say

shooting puppies is really out of bounds. so maybe she knows something about donald trump that you and i don't. >> well, charlie, i remember donald trump didn't want the pences to bring all their pets. i think we know something about donald trump. he doesn't like animals. and his insult for me when he attacked me was i think to call me a dog. we know that trump thinks about dogs. let me show you, charlio, what joe scarborough said about the rot this reveals in the gop. >> this kristi noem thing, the most remarkable part of it is that the conservative movement has been so corrupted by donald trump and has reached such new lows that she actually put that in about the killing of a happy puppy because she thought it would help her with the base. >> someone smarter than me said this. the cruelty is the point with the gop. >> exactly.

it's not just the cruelty, it is the brutality. she thinks that putting on her resume i am so tough that i will kill puppies will impress donald trump. and again, we ought to know that donald trump has made his fetish for brutality pretty obvious. he talks about not just killing puppies but killing people, extrajudicial executions of drug dealers, shooting shoplifters. this has now become one of his go-to lines. but why did she put that in the book? and the only possible explanation is that this was part of her argument that i will never be weak like mike pence, i am willing to do the dirty jobs, i am willing to be tough. how tough am i? i will kill the puppy. i will kill the goat. and she thought that that would play with donald trump. now, if there's any good news in all of this, it is that even on earth two murdering puppies is the bridge too far, that maybe

we have found the bottom here because i think most people in both political parties were repelled by it. but it is incredibly revealing that kristi noem and the people around her like maybe cory lewandowski said yeah, this is going to be a good story, the boss will like it because he not only hates dogs, he kind of likes the brutality and he's looking for somebody who will do unspeakable things because the number one thing he's looking for in a vice presidential candidate is somebody who will not quail at doing something like he wanted mike pence to do on january 6th. but this of course is on a whole different level, right? >> yeah. i will shoot the puppy. i will hang mike pence. i will put kids in cages. the list goes on and on. i need you all to stick around a little bit longer. a quick break for us. we'll all be right back. eak fors we'll all be right back.

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so you can lighten every day the metamucil way. everyone is back of the special segment. my friend rumpus today, dogs are beautiful and special animals. more than anything they are bundles of love waiting to be tapped. when they are the devotion, affection and joy and companionship that they bring. it is something that is more ethereal than earthly. they are friends through good days and bad. how we treat them as a mark of character that is indelible. mark, charlie and eddie are all back.

there is a lot of history of how someone treats their dog being a pretty salient political issue, mark romney could not live down putting his dog on the roof of the car. ted cruz left the family dog behind when he went to mexico during his state's blackout. it is something everyone can relate to and understand how you treat your furry friends. mark, you are muted. unmute and come back to us. start over. >> sorry about that. which is what makes this both inexplicable and so predictable it is inexplicable and that she would have thought that, you know, attacking and killing an innocent puppy made any sense in the world. it is inexplicable in that each of those stories that you tell

revealed something that people already believed about the person. mitt romney did it because he is sort of a calculating businessman who works a bang. ted cruz did it because he does not care about people and probably is not that nice even to his family. here, she had the chance to write down her best version of herself. the best version of herself was someone who called bodily -- murdered puppies. in the republican party, that is all that mattered. all that matters is what they think the boss wants print if the bonds want you to steal elections, used elections. we want you to pick off stars, you payoff stars. if he wants you to do just anything that even other people are not willing to, then you tell story about shooting puppies >> charlie, it is -- i look at the story because there is something so upsetting to me

about telling it. listening to eddie and marc and you, when we have these problems that illustrate the whole party, we need to lift them up . these are the stories we need to tell. it is about the reward system but not to mix metaphors but the pavlovian republican response is that the more violent, the more vile, the more corrupt, the more pleasure from the boss. >> it is interesting because you have people talking about coral and being brutal to people all the time. it takes a story about the dog to get attention. dogs are the best people. dogs.in fact, i have two very l puppies who are waiting for me to be done here i told them that they will get treats and belly rubs as long as they do not bark during the segment.

it is a reminder that there is a special bond between people and dogs. if you do not understand that, then i think it does show you are lacking something. they rely on us and our loyal to us. they look to us with a kind of devotion that we are never going to get. maybe we will get it. we often do not get it from others. it is a very special bond. therefore, so much more revealing, as mark said, this is something that she thought would reflect her best self. what i think we are seeing is that most americans, whatever your political alliances are, see right through that. i think it is one of the rare moments of optimism that -- okay, americans united on one thing but if you murder puppies you are a terrible human being i will take that win. >> i will take the win.

when you get evidence of how corrupted one of the country's two parties are, you have to take it holding your hand to really examine it. look at squarely in the face. when people show you who you are, believe them wholeheartedly. what we have are these folks were cruelly is the atmosphere we have these folk who are willing to be monstrous and brutal in their reactions to animals and reaction to people that they don't believe you are one of them. we have a coalition of the descent against these indecent poke for the collation of the decent can disagree . we can argue and fight. >> family fights. >> but we've got to hold off these indecent people because they will undermine everything we cherish. if we do that, then we can have our fights a little more civil. >> biden has to make that clear within the family. >> especially to these young folk who we are testing right now.

>> bring them in. >> marc, this is your dog, bodie . >> bodie, as i said in the picture, bodie is on trainable bodie would not even start to ? you in training. he is also protecting democracy and democracy paper dogs. >> i have a girlfriend for bodie. a poppy has been through three trainers. marc elias, eddie, charlie, thank you so much for spending time. another break for us. we will be right back. i brought in ensure max protein

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