the legend at the map, steve kornacki. >> you know, i'm a diva, honey. and that's what we do. >> here we are trucking. this is what it looks like when we do a news show from the road. >> i would be more happy if this was our viewer. >> we're in brooklyn. >> yeah. >> if it's friday, it's -- >> time to fall back. >> hey. >> that's one part of the internet. or you can go to nbc.com/summit and see the full interview we did with justice breyer. it's 40 minutes, so a lot more than what we had time to air in clips tonight. you can always connect with me directly at arimelber.com. there are no bills banning that website. thanks for spending time with us. "the reidout" is up next. tonight on "the reidout" -- >> you see these bums, you know,

blowing up the campuses. listen, the boys on the college campuses are the luckiest people in the world. and here they are burning up the books, storming around about this issue. you name it. >> president richard nixon in 1970 referring to student war protesters as bums. just three days before four students were shot dead by the ohio national guard at kent state. and once again, we're seeing the cycle repeating itself. as universities and police departments clamp down on campus protests. also tonight, how trump's lawyers are appealing more to their client's vanity and less to the judge and jury, and why that is a losing strategy. plus, was there ever any doubt that ron desantis would be back in trump's loving embrace? he's one of many former trump critics now scrambling to get back into his good graces. but we begin tonight with a question. about a long standing protection

supposedly afforded by the u.s. constitution. namely, what rights do you have to protest in america? we assume a lot because of the first amendment, right? but what if you're trying to exercise your free speech rights on a university campus? what if your views are unpopular or at least in the minority of the general public? it turns out if you're protesting war, your rights are pretty limited. in the 1960s and '70s, during the vietnam war, we had anti-war protests around the country, and those protests are now enshrined as one of the most pervasive displays of opposition to the u.s. government in modern times. young people protested against the expansion of the war, the draft, the use of napalm, the chemical gas that had become a symbol of the war in vietnam. these protests were large and intense and in some cases violent. there were shootings on college campuses like kent state university where the ohio national guard shot and killed

four unarmed college students during a rally opposing the expanding involvement of the vietnam war into cambodia. that shooting is set to mark its 54th anniversary this saturday. days later, also in 1970, in a lesser known incident, police opened fire on students during a protest at jackson state college, the historically black college in mississippi. here you see bullet holes and a woman's dormitory where police officers fired into a crowd around the dormitory, killing two and wounding 15 students. to open fire on unarmed students just shows you the kind of contempt the state had for those opposing the war. a war in which men the students' age were dying. as part of its historical opposition to the idea of being against a war from vietnam to iraq, you saw consistent patterns of disparaging anti-war

protesters. students in the 1960s being told to join the vietcong despite al qaeda having nothing to do with iraq. you also saw it with anti-apartheid protesters which is a little different, not a war, but a situation containing elements of war like colonization. and let's not forget the cruel disregard for black life during the civil rights movement, which went hand in hand with the anti-war movement. especially when dr. martin luther king jr. delivered a speech condemning the vietnam war. it's easy now to assume that most americans oppose the war in vietnam, but at the time, they didn't. ditto on iraq. now we're seeing a similar type of backlash against those who oppose the israeli offensive in gaza, including the deployment by university leaders in some cases of overwhelming state police force. the message is clear. the government and university presidents want you to know that

the right to protest is a farce. you can be tear gassed, shot with rubber bullets, tackled and thrown to the ground, and arrested. at emory university, a shocking scene unfolded as atlanta police and georgia state troopers arrested protesters and released chemical agents on campus. at least two videos have emerged of professors getting arrested. this is professor noel mcafee who will join us. the use of police force against these protesters should alarm you, and it mirrors the violence that is happening in israel, with police responding to anti-war protesters there as well. you have to wonder why. why would the state line up against our students who are the future? especially young people like these, who are at some of the most prestigious universities in america, doing exactly what one is supposed to do in college, which is to think critically, stand up for what they believe in, and demand a better world.

students who are speaking out against atrocities they are seeing abroad, a war where palestinians are getting killed in air strikes in areas that the israeli military designated as safe zones. they're watching children starve while workers bringing desperately needed food are killed by sniper drones. potential war crimes so appalling that israel fears its leaders could soon face arrest warrants from the international criminal court. these actions are what these young people are protesting. as they did in reaction to vietnam and the iraq war, and during the civil rights movement. and against south african apartheid. we have seen this story play out before. only this time, it stems from the unrest that began largely at new york's columbia university, where university officials gave the pro-palestinian demonstrators a 2:00 p.m. deadline today and threatened to suspend them if they did not leave. but it's obvious it's not dying

down. as of tonight, the tents remain. columbia said it has started suspending students who defied the deadline. joining me now from columbia university is nbc news correspondent antonia hylton. give us the latest on what's happening there. >> reporter: hey, joy. well, you just said it. the encampment is very much here. not only are all the tents still up, but students are inside gathering, meeting, talking about what they expect to happen next. i have spoken to some students as well as faculty members and faculty are a critical piece of this because many of them have started to wear these bright neon yellow vests and standing around the encampment to send a signal to administration or potentially to the nypd if they were to return that they're standing with their students. and what they tell me is that they're concerned about what's about to happen tonight or into the early hours of tomorrow. and that's because of this 2:00 p.m. deadline. it came and it went. and what we saw happen around

1:00 was there were the protests led by the core students involved in this day after day, but hundreds of other students joined them. this entire historic lawn, this section at the center, the heart of the campus, was full of students chanting and marching all around the campus together. including many, hundreds of students who again are not part of this core team, but who wanted to show up and show the administration we're on our classmates' side in this. there was also a small pro-israel rally that came out behind where i am right now to show support for their side. but the overwhelming majority of students here have been showing at least in physical and in public spaces that they're on the side of the students in this encampment. even some students told me while they might mourn what could happen to graduation or how it might look different if the encampment is still present, because of all the global forces you just described, in a way they can't make it about themselves. they have started somewhat of a

movement, they tell me. they see encampments spreading from massachusetts to indiana and tennessee and california, and because this is seen as the epicenter, a lot of these students are now separating into two groups. the students who are going to risk arrest, suspension, or maybe even expulsion. and the students who won't. and why may pack up their belongings tonight and make a plan so they can be part of commencement or make sure they graduate this semester and stay in good standing. but i expect to see tomorrow, we're going to be back on the ground again, even as the encampment potentially shrinks that's still an open question. i think you'll see a lot of students standing around in solidarity with their classmates. >> what do we know about the organizers of that encampment? >> reporter: well, it's a decentralized power structure so there are several leaders. several organizers and they're of all faiths. there are muslim students, jewish students who are key

crucial core organizers here as part of this encampment. and some of the students are undergraduates. some of the leadership are graduate school students. and a lot of the time they spend the day doing activities. they'll go to classes, do their homework. they have a library where students can read and learn about the middle east and all kinds of incidents in the past. they can debate with each other. they'll bring in factalty members who sometimes talk to them about these issues from their perspective. they also engage with faculty who actually don't always agree with them on everything. the faculty supporting them are supporting them from a principle of free speech. they just don't want to see the nypd return and their students be treated this way, they tell me, joy. >> nbc's antoia hylton doing some of the best reporting. such a valuable journalist, and we need more people to be doing what you're doing actually out there talking to students and doing the real work. thank you. let's bring in emory university

professor noelle mcafee who we showed you earlier being arrested, and jelani cobb, an msnbc contributor. thank you for being here. i want to start with you, jelani. graduation is coming up at columbia very soon. what do you know about the negotiations with these students because they have not yet left this encampment? >> well, they have reached an impasse, so there's core issues, kind of immovable space almost between where the students are and where the administration is. so i can't obviously talk about any particulars. >> i mean, the thing is, this is an anti-war protest. in the classic sense. they're literally against a war. and are being met with police brutality, but this is happening all over the country, at emory, they used tear gas on students. talk about the historical context. >> i will add one thing, which is that the real kind of fulcrum here is also graduation. >> yes. >> so there's the free speech

side of it and also an array of voices from other students, some of whom okay if graduation doesn't happen because they're so supportive of this. many of whom are not. >> some did not get to do school during the pandemic. >> some didn't get a high school graduation. that's kind of the complex -- and then there are a lot of parents and other dynamics. it's more complicated than just the straightforward thing. >> we have to recognize, this is an international center of learning. people have flown in from other countries to go to graduation. there's a question or whether or not graduation has to take place on the same space, i'm assuming. >> that's the exact space. so that's been one of the core issues that also aggravates the debate that's happening here. in terms of context, there's some real crucial precedence because when i was walking across campus, i think two days ago, a gentleman came up to me and told me he had helped organize the 1985 occupation which pushed columbia to become

the first university that divested from companies doing business in south africa. and he was talking about the parallels and the divergences and the things he saw that were different and things he thought were kind of precedents that should be copies in the situation. the real thing that people are thinking about, certainly people are thinking about columbia's history, is the anti-war protests of 1968, the huge one that, you know, actually a series of protests that generated so much conflict and so much strife in the course of them that there had been a half century precedent of not calling nypd to campus. >> until now. >> until now. >> calling the police on your own students, i want to get you into this, professor. to me, it feels like a bridge that one would think that knowing the history, knowing that this is a history that is on tape, that one can play back, that the violent history of using the police to suppress dissent on campus, yet

university after university is not just doing it but escalating it. i would say that your university escalated it, using tear gas, using chemical agents on students. talk about your experience and why you were arrested. >> yeah, thank you, joy. this is an honor to be here. can i tell you a little anecdote first? there's a friend and mentor, david matthews, the youngest president of the university of alabama several decades ago. he went on a trip and came back to his office at president of the university and there were students sitting down occupying his office. what he did is sat down with them. and he called in the student government association president and he had weeks of sitting down on the floor with these students talking with them. in higher education, we should be teaching our students how to think, how to engage, how to do politics in a constructive way. so to go to your question, i had

been in my office, wanted to check on the students. i knew from the past that emory liked to just call in the police. i wanted to make sure they hadn't done that. i came down there, and they had called in the police, and not just emory, atlanta police, and as i'm standing there, i see the georgia troopers marching in. and when they got in position, they just attacked the students. they had ambushed them. they attacked them. and their mission was to clear the quad. and they did that. so and i went to jail, yeah. just briefly. they let me out. but this is not how to educate students. we live in a world that's already so hyperpolarized and we can't think beyond these extreme positions. so i think it's just tragic. not just -- on so many levels but on the big political level, this is not the way to teach citizenship. >> i want to show just a couple

things. police have now broken up an israeli gaza protest at the university of georgia campus. this is all taking place today as vice president kamala harris is actually in atlanta today. to stay with you professor for a moment, a lot of the anger coming off the georgia campuses is not just about gaza. it's about cop city. it's about police training that is actually joint training between the idf and israel and georgia police. so it's also an anti-police violence protest too. can you talk a bit about that dynamic? what these students are asking for is divestment from that kind of police training, cop city, and investments in military. >> yes, and just think about it. these students are fighting something that the atlanta police department is orchestrating and emory brings in the atlanta police department. you're going to get -- there are students tear gassed, pummeled, that were standing by. there was another professor who didn't even know a demonstration was going by, she walks by and sees police pummeling somebody.

gets between them, and she was in jail overnight. >> let me play for you what's happening at ucla for a moment. we're running short on time so i want to make sure i play this. let's play this. ucla, a gaza solidarity march got broken up where two sides ended up in contrast with each other. >> listen to what i'm telling you. long live israel. there ain't nothing you can do about it. nothing. you ain't going to do anything now. >> take it off! [ bleep ] >> what's up? >> this is one of the few protests where it did get

violent. the two groups came together, clashed. you're now starting to see when the protesters are allowed to interact, it gets worse. >> yeah, i think one of the important things that, at least in earlier iterations of this is we often saw protests in which there were pro-palestinian groups and pro-israeli groups separated by narrow divide, but people largely kept it to chanlts. and chanting at each other. i think as things have intensified, that's what you saw there. >> i think we have to have a larger conversation about the ways in which these universities are very much a part of the military industrial complex. these students are not making it up that these schools are in partnership in many ways with military companies, there's a lot of that. >> yeah, that's the kind of historic thing. that's always been kind -- if we go back to 1968, the parallels between 1968 and now. that large protest began because of columbia's involvement with

organization that was doing defense research for vietnam. so that's not a novel development. but it's a thing we have to be really concerned about. >> i want to have more conversation on this show because i think it's important. professor, thank you for joining me. jelani cobb, thank you. up next on "the reidout," a second week of arguments in the first ever criminal trial of a sitting president starts tomorrow. and we're expecting trump's lawyers to continue his go-to strategy of never giving an inch to his so-called enemies. "the reidout" continues after this.

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when donald trump enters a new york city courtroom tomorrow for his second week in front of a 12-member jury in his first criminal trial, he's surely hoping his lawyers continue following his lead and that of his former mentor, roy cohn, who taught him the strategy of distract, deflect, and never admit no wrong. it hasn't appeared to go well for trump's defense team so far. during last week's hearing on whether trump violated his gag order, trump's lawyer todd blanche claimed counter to what was evident by trump's actions on potential trial witnesses, that, quote, president trump is being very careful to comply with your honor's rules, unquote. that led to a stern response from judge juan merchan. you, mr. blanche, you are losing all credibility. i have to tell you that right now, you're losing all credibility with the court.

mind you, that exchange came on only the second day of the jury seated in what is expected to be a weeks long trial. as "the new york times" points out, as the trial grinds on, legal experts said the defense team will need to walk a fine line to appease both of its audiences. 12 jurors and a singular defendant. trying the case to your client's vanity rather than to the jury is a losing game, said jay bruce mafayo. joining me is harry lipman, former u.s. attorney and senior legal affairs columnist for the los angeles times. and doug jones, former alabama senator and former u.s. attorney who is currently a distinguished senior fellow at the center for american progress. thank you both for being here. harry, i'll start with you at the table. it does seem that todd blanche was kind of hamstrung by trying to please donald trump. all of the sort of weirdness of calling him president trump when he's not the president, and just insisting on using that terminology and saying he did

nothing wrong. all of it just seems to be for trump's benefit. how well do you think that's working out for them in the trial? >> so far, not very. i think it's only going to get worse. look, we talked about roy kaine. trump we often compare to a mob boss. even when a mob boss is under indictment and goes to see roy cohn, he says shut up and listen to me. i know what needs to happen. we're going to go there and say maybe you haven't lived an exemplary life, but this charge and that charge, they can't do that with trump. and what it means is they're going to have to say he never had an affair with mcdougal. he never slept with stormy. and all in all, for the jury, i mean, it's one thing for him to deflect and deny, but there are 12 people there who are judging his credibility. and can everyone be lying here? imagine the cross-examination they're going to have to do on stormy daniels. it's the wrong way to prosecute -- they're going to

have to call her a flaming liar. they try to assume the same for pecker. >> if they know they're lying, isn't that sort of misconduct on the part of the lawyers? >> that's very interesting. they won't say -- well, they can't suborn perjury, the perjury here would be from donald trump. i don't think we're going to see him testify. they can suggest that daniels, well, you're making this up, aren't you, but there's only so far they can go. in front of a jury, it will look like they're badgering her. >> and also his personality from the '80s, of course he did it. let me go to you, doug jones. this was donald trump's came complaint last week. >> these are all done as election interference. everybody knows it. i'm here instead of being able to be in pennsylvania and georgia and lots of other places campaigning. and it's very unfair. >> today is monday.

there is no court today. i doubt donald trump is campaigning or nor is he probably with melania because let's be honest, she doesn't want to hang out with him, it's clear. here's what he did the days he did not have court. wednesday, fwaufl. saturday, golf. sunday, golf. he does have a couple campaign events this wednesday in wisconsin and michigan. up tanow, he has not utilized his time when he's not in court to campaign. your thoughts. >> you know, the thought that i had when i first heard that comment when he said he was supposed to be in north carolina, he was supposed to be in pennsylvania. well, no, he's supposed to be in court. he's a criminal defendant, and he is required to be in court. maybe he would like to be in north carolina. but i don't know, and i bet harry would agree, i have never seen a criminal defendant who didn't want to be anywhere the hell else other than sitting in a court with united states of america or the state of x saying that you're on trial for a crime. so look, i really think that

that's just playing to the cameras. donald trump is going to do what donald trump wants to do on the weekends. he will campaign some. what's striking to me is how little campaigning he's actually doing as opposed to president biden, who is traveling across this country, you know, two or three times a week. it's really stunning the way they have picked up the pace of their travels. and donald trump is not doing that. he wants to campaign by complaining about the trial. and that's it. >> doug jones, you prosecuted klansmen. any of them fall asleep in court while you were prosecuting them? >> i didn't look over. i didn't pay attention, but i doubt it seriously. those kind of cases, any kind of case, a defendant more than probably just about anybody is acutely aware of the circumstances and acutely aware of what they are facing. there's no one else in that courtroom that is facing what that criminal defendant is facing. and you better be on top of your

game because i know that todd blanche is a good lawyer, and i am confident that he has told his client, this jury is going to be watching you every second. they're going to be watching you even when they're supposed to be watching the judge or a witness. so you have got to make sure you have the right demeanor. you stay alert. because your body language -- he may not testify, but his body language tells it all. >> same to you, harry. have you ever seen a defendant in such a high-profile case fall asleep? >> look, i was in court. you could see the jury and see trump. and see the attentiveness. obviously not. you know, it shows. i think, who knows what's going through his mind and what medication he's taking and the like, but obviously, any lawyer would, you know -- >> nudge him. what was interesting, having been in the courtroom the day i was there, it's interesting to watch the jurors play ping-pong. they really do watch whoever is

testifying and keep looking back over at donald trump. they're taking notes. they're not falling asleep. they're very attentive. do you get any signals to any of the particular witnesses being of interest to them when you were sitting there? >> i think they really were focused on -- pecker is a weird guy. kind of a scoundrel, but i thought he played it like an open book. they were attentive to him and very attentive on the redirect, the last part when the d.a. was there. you could see them go a little bit more in their seats. also, there's been a lot of preview about michael cohen, michael cohen, i'm sure when he comes they'll be focused hard. >> there's an april 23rd gag order hearing and then a thursday gag order hearing that's coming up. what do you anticipate happening here? because donald trump is notoriously difficult to restrain. what do you expect this judge to do? >> you know, i think it's hard to say. i don't see that this judge right now is going to in any way

put him in custody. but i do think he'll talk to him. i do think he will say, you know, you are stretching the court's limits with what you have done. i think he will find he violated the gag order. it seems pretty clear, i think, to just about anybody who has ever been in a criminal case that he's violated the gag order and likely done it intentionally. and that's where i think this lawyer got into some problems with the court. when he said he was trying his best to comply. pretty clear that he's trying his best to goad this judge into doing something, and that can be a problem. but i don't think this judge will take the bait. i think he wants to get this trial through and proceed. i think he's going to have a stern talking. >> harry lipman and doug jones, thank you both very much. coming up, since 2016 will literally never end, republicans who once took abuse from trump and questioned if he was fit for the presidency are now groveling at his feet.

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the problem with ron desankmonious is that he needs a personality transplant and those are not yet available. >> you know the expression, he's like a wounded bird falling from the sky. so there he is, it's ron

desankmonious. he's falling, falling beautifully from the sky. a beautiful thing to watch. ron was walking off the stage, and his feet, it's weird. because his cowboy boots, so they have a high heel outside, but inside, you have a big deal going on. and he's walking like -- he's walking off the stage like he's trying to balance himself. i thought he was wearing ice skates. >> like a wounded bird falling from the sky. after spending the better part of the past year being publicly mocked and humiliated by donald trump on the campaign trail, florida governor ron desantis appears to be ready to grovel at the feet of his former primary rival. trump and desantis met privately in florida this weekend to bury the hatchet and talk about how they can work together ahead of the november election. for trump, the truce appears to be purely for financial reasons. according to "the washington post," trump's advisers hope desantis will tap his donor

network to help raise significant sums of money because as we all know, trump really needs it. while desantis is apparently just looking out for his own political future. and if history has any indication, it's now only a matter of time before desantis or whatever he's calling himself now adds his name to the long list of republicans who went from challenging or opposing to trump to publicly degrading themselves on his behalf, joining the likes of lindsey graham, ted cruz, and tim scott. joining me is matthew dowd, former republican strategist and msnbc senior political analyst. what's the over/under on how long until ron desantis starts calling himself ron desankmonious? >> i don't know that over/under whether he's going to apply the label, but what's the over/under on how quickly he's out there campaigning for donald trump, my guess is five days. in the course of this. you can add on your li of people who have grovelled, marco rubio is also on that list of people.

>> lil marco. >> yeah, in the course of this. what's amazing to me. this is a political party, the republicans, that have run on this constant strength of manhood and we're the party of strength and this is who we are, nobody is going to tell us what to do, and they're the weakest people with a lack of moral fiber of any i have ever seen in the course of this. i guess they have no sense of themselves or no sense of pride in their own thing. they're willing to do whatever it takes. i don't get what it gets them. but i think at this point, and maybe we'll talk about this in the next segment as well, is one of the benefits that donald trump has provided america is he's the great revealer. what donald trump has done in not only in america as a whole and revealed what we need to fix in our country and all of the things we need to fix. he's revealed people's true character. >> indeed. >> that's what he's revealed. he revealed bill barr's character, marco rubio's

character, he's revealed all these people's fundamental true character. and actually, that's a benefit so we can see who they really are. >> a parade of beta males. here's bill barr then versus now. >> and in that context, i made it clear i did not agree with the idea of saying the election was stolen and putting out this stuff, which i told the predwas [ bleep ]. >> you're voting for someone you believe tried to subvert the peaceful transfer of power that can't even achieve his own policies, that lied about the election, even after his attorney general told him that the election wasn't stolen. and as the former chief law enforcement in the country, you're going to vote for someone who is facing 88 criminal counts. >> look, the 88 criminal counts, a lot of those are -- i have said -- >> even if ten are accurate. >> the answer to your question is yes. >> beta male number two, lindsey graham in 2016, he said if we nominate trump, we'll get destroyed and we deserve it. here's him now. >> if he is convicted, you will

still support him and vote for him? >> absolutely. i think what's going on with donald trump is weaponization of the law. he's been prosecuted in manhattan, one of the deepest blue cities in the country. >> and beta male number three, jd vance. he compared donald trump to hitler in a text to his former roommate. he said i go back and forth between thinking trump might be a cynical a-hole or he might be america's hitler. he's also called trump loathsome and an idiot, and here's jd vance this past sunday on fox. >> i was wrong. i didn't think he would be a good president. he's a great president. that's not about sinking to political degradation. it's looking at reality and recognizing that donald trump was a success. >> is this just that they were sort of always betas who were faking alpha, or is it capitulation because they think he'll be an autocrat and they want to supplicate themselves before him in advaps because

they're afraid of him and what he might do with his authority if he gets back in? >> can i answer yes to both of those? i think being a beta male and that's who you always are is also one of the requirements of submitting to an autocrat and not standing up to them. they're basically the same thing. i also think what it says is these people no matter what they have lectured other people on about america or faith or religion or whatever have no core moral principles. have zero core moral. and that's what we have discovered in this. all the things they repeat out there for crowds and quoting the bible and all of that about being honest and truthful is all a big lie. there was never something they fundamentally believed. they only said it because they thought it would benefit them politically, and now they're doing the same thing, going along with donald trump because they think it's going to benefit them politically. so yes to both of your questions. but they have no moral center. >> they're also beta females as

well. and i think the thing that people don't understand is that donald trump despises these people. he reportedly is sick of kari lake already. he doesn't respect any of these people. he despises them because of their weakness and their capitulation. really quick, your thoughts. >> i think he despises them the same way he despises his own voters. he has no care about them, he would not hang out with them. he despises them even though he constantly says he's their advocate. he dissurprises the election officials and the voters. >> and we're going to talk about one more on the other side of the break. matthew dowd is going to stick with us. somehow, kristi noem is doubling down on her alpha decision to kill her dog. yeah. that's next. hello, ghostbusters. it's doug. we help people customize and save hundreds on car insurance

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hi, i'm michael, i've lost 62 pounds on golo and i have kept it off. ...we can use less new plastic. most of the weight that i gained was strictly in my belly which is a sign of insulin resistance. but since golo, that weight has completely gone away, as you can tell. thanks to golo and release, i've got my life and my health back. kristi noem is not exactly a household name. she's the governor of south dakota and a former unremarkable congresswoman for that state. but her name is now popping up for all the wrong reasons. four of south dakota's federally recognized native american tribes have barred nome from their lands after she claimed without evidence that mexican drug cartels had a foothold on their reservations and were committing murders there. she's grown close to donald

trump and even closer with some of his political allies like corey lewandowski. she's on the short list of the hang mike pence aka running mate and she's hawking a new book to help sell herself to the country. the guardian found out nome is the proud killer of what described as an untrainable puppy which she said she hated. and normally, killing puppies would be the opposite of a political calling card, but weirdly enough, the poor little monster is not the only animal known as killed. she said she also killed an uncastrated goat who was bothering her children. nome apparently thinks this story shows americans she's willing to do the tough things like killing puppies. when the we just had to put down three horses a few weeks ago that had been in our family for 25

years. back with me is matthew dowd. you are a political strategist. make it make sense to me how killing puppies is a thing that makes you better and more attractive as a politician. >> this leads back to the previous conversation. i think what we are seeing is this, unfortunately, this toxic place that exists in parts of america, including in parts of our elected officials that is revealed in the course of this. we all know, any rational human being knows her actions are despicable, she is deplorable, she is cruella de vil from the dakotas. don't take dalmatians to south dakota anytime soon in the course of this. what it says more fundamentally about the republican party is these people believe the ends justify the means and it even goes as far as killing animals. think about that. it is a lie, if lying is

achieving my goal, i will obstruct democracy, i will still documents, i will pay off point start, i will do all these things if it did achieves a fundamental goal and i think how despicable her behavior his, i think she deep down believes she could do whatever she wants to do if it is in some service of whatever she thinks it is, including killing a pet dog, which she believes is unruly. i guess she didn't think there was an option of giving it away or giving it to a shelter, which i'm sure would have been welcome to take it. i think that the other part that is even more outrageous is she is proud of it. to anybody who has had to put down an animal for some health reason or some other reason, it stays with them the rest of their life. stays with them the rest of their life. she is proud that she did that. >> what is wild is that i am old enough to remember when mitt romney, part of what

destroyed him in the election when he was running against president obama is that he put his dog shamus on the roof of their car to travel from state to state, which people thought was an absolute horror. this woman is talking about what we would normally consider serial killer behavior, people who kill animals repeatedly and repeatedly and she keeps bragging, she keeps doing. that is what we think of as a serial killer behavior. she thinks, and mary trump has said, she thinks it will appeal to donald trump because he does like people who are needlessly cruel. she may be right that this makes her more attractive to trump. >> i think it would appeal to trump and who he is like that's great but donald trump is smart enough to know i'm not going to put a puppy killer on the pallet with me. it could hurt me. i think he would slap her high- five and say that is neat that you did that but you are not going to be on the ticket. once you do that, speaking of the nfl draft, you go from the first round not being drafted

by anybody, once you are identified as a puppy killer. >> is kind of amazing the things republicans think makes them attractive. ron desantis, six week abortion ban, kristi noem, being so horrible to the tribes in your state that they say get out, never come to our lands. you go on and on. the governor of iowa, six week abortion ban, brian kemp, they actually think cruelty helps them. >> i think they think cruelty is not a bug, it is part of the system. that is what they think is what their party wants and think about how they talk about other people and they are proud of the fact they say the coolest things to people, that they sent police officers to beat up people. they think that is a neat thing to do. and, the sad part, joy, there is an element of american society that actually likes it. >> i will note that tate reeves, the governor of mississippi has declared made to be confederate heritage month while banning the teaching of black history. tate reeves, you are welcome to come onto the show and tell us

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&myrlie". here is a preview. >> this is a time that is very much like medgar evers's time. what do they do when they were faced with the things things we did ? and what they did ? they voted. they voted anyway. and, because they understood that as king said, you may not be able to get the racist sheriff to stop being racist toward you or change his mind, you can vote them out. and, in the end, what people have to remember is the vote and using the vote is the strongest and most powerful tool that you have. we had a fantastic discussion and a terrific turnout at the apollo. be sure to watch joy reed and rachel maddow live at the apollo saturday night at 9:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc and streaming on the top. that is