two quick things. i had so much fun with the joy read at the apollo theater. we were talking about her new book. we filmed that. this saturday, you can in c joy reed and rachel maddow live at the apollo. is going to streamline peacock as well. if you want to see me live, there are a few tickets left for an event i am doing for my book prequel, this saturday night in kingston, new york. a few tickets are left in kingston, new york. it is time for the last word.

something to watch on a saturday night. of course the breaking news is the celtics 1 out of two. i arranged with the nba commissioner to make sure the celtics are not playing after 10:00 pm on any night. >> people ask what we do with our political capitol. that is a noble use. >> being the multitasker that i am, i was watching you and the celtics and i loved that you went into detail but i just can't get tired of reviewing the detail of who has not shown up for donald trump when he is begging them to show up at this trial and pretending there are problems. i have been doing my crowd

reports by walking down there and it's such a pleasant want. three was my last count. i think it is an important story. we saw this terroristic activity on january 6. we have had a right to live in fear. >> he is demanding that. the relationship is hard to suss out. >> he is having green lit the vaccines. the crowd boos about that. there are weird dynamics. in this case, not just

predicting like the normal people, he is directing them to do it. that house to upset him. i don't know how it resolves. it has to be infuriating. >> when i mentioned people don't show up, we all have jobs. i don't ask what jobs they had. than the other line, it's they seem to be trying to say or suggest that i am disappointed. there isn't a big riot down there. what i said all along, i didn't expect it. my prediction was there may be

nothing. they will be peaceful and they are. the people that show up are peaceful. >> the overset other 70 million are being very peaceful. >> the system, it is not just a concept. it is a thing that is getting done is a cooling saucer. there isn't a big public performance of the trial. the fact they are having it described by people that have seen it or being sketched for them by artists sitting there. it is a slow down process. it has a grind element.

despite how great it seems. is never going to get that dopamine. donald trump is stuck without the crowd. >> the federal judge in florida released the transcript of donald trump's codefendant -- testimony to the grand jury that took place months before the fbi executed a search warrant at the florida club. it differs significantly.

in that voluntary interview with the fbi. this is one of the lies accused of telling the fbi. are you aware of any boxes being brought to his home was sweet picked the indictments about one word was a lie and the crime. the first time he ever saw the boxes, that is when he was helping to move about 15 onto a truck to send them back. to the best of your knowledge, your seamless boxes that you brought onto the truck, was just today. the employee needed you to answer correct.

>> that word was alive. >> the fbi asked, this question, do you have any information that could or would help us understand where they were kept and how they work out. were they secured. something that makes the community feel better. >> i wish i could tell you. the indictment said that answer was alive. a month later the testimony also in effect. the interview was alive. he admitted under oath to the grand jury that he moved boxes before he helped move them to be sent back. you have taken multiple boxes since january 2022 to his

private residence. answer, correct. that is what he said under oath, contradicting what was told to the fbi a month earlier. struck another question, is your testimony that in fact you moved boxes from the basement to pine hall? answer, weeks prior yes. that answer is again a direct contradiction to what he said in his interview with the fbi. at the end of the testimony, there were good questions. a grandeur, was it a scif witness? no. >> that is a very important question and point to establish that the move was not a secure location. another asked before you said that some of you did not know what was in any of the boxes

but some were labeled. what i am confused about, how is it that only specific boxes were labeled but none of the others were? they did not give an answer that made any sense and it remained a mystery how he knew which boxes to bring upstairs when the boss asked for boxes. another juror picked up on that. so you are instructed to take some of them up to pine hall. you are not instructed to take any particular boxes came >> correct. >> the juror, you just pick some off of the top? >> yes. >> you don't know what the contents of the boxes you are taking.'s b i do not. >> the credibility as a witness in his own defense, under oath,

during trial, if he takes the stand, appears now to be a major challenge. another document released by judge cannon shows that he promised a pardon for lying to the fbi, according to person 16, and a heavily redacted fbi report of an interview with the witness. in this report, donald trump is referred to as former president of the united states. the document said he has not spoken since the white house and did not know him. he was told by f potus people that the investigation was not going anywhere and that it was politically motivated and much ado about nothing. also told even if he gets charged with lying to the fbi, f potus will pardon him in 2024.

person 16 is clearly someone that worked in the white house and told the fbi of the great risk for him in the trump world because he was secretly doing a voluntary interview. the entire second page is redacted. most of the names of the people i redacted in addition to person 16 minutes 14, 34, 37, 38, 47 and so on. the report says while at the white house, a person 16 was generally aware through conversation that 14, 34, 37 and redacted was not getting records back. there was no process for f potus to designate as personal records. he routinely took documents to the residence. person 16 was not aware of f

potus declassified records . according to person 16, there was no standing declassification order. it is believed known in the white house would testify that there was such an order with the exception of possibly person 24 who was unhinged and crazy. person 16 recalled the kim jong un letters the obama letter and the hurricane map being specific records that the archives and records administration was missing. at some point, a person 16 learned that f potus had not returned to them and multiple people tried to convince f potus to return records. early in november 2021, person 16 made his own appeal. person 16 was on a conference call with f potus and told f potus, whatever you have, give

it all back. f potus wanted to know how anyone knew about the issue. he was informed it was all documented in writing. the response was essentially, will check and think about it. person 16 spoke to multiple people around f potus to send the message that he needed to give the stuff back, that it belonged to the u.s. government and was not worth the aggravation. on november 2021, person 16 visited f potus at mar-a-lago. f potus was in golf attire. person 16 told him, whatever you have, give everything back. let them come here and get everything. don't give them a noble reason to indict you because they will. person 16 walk away from the 15 minute meeting with the impression that f potus would

return the records to the national archives and records administration. not once during any of the discussions did f potus or anyone else say these records had been designated as personal records or had been declassified. leading off the discussion is the former chief of the criminal division. he is the legal analyst and co- author of the new york times best-selling book, trump indictments, the historic charging documents. also with us, bradley moss, an attorney that represents people that work in the intelligence community. what are we learning by this document release. it is just a portion of 400 pages of material that the judge has released. >> a number of things. first, if he had been represented by mr. moss, he

would have asserted the fifth amendment in the grand jury and not given testimony that would be extremely helpful to convicting him. i think the answer is in public corruption cases, very often people speak when they should not because of the general repercussions of it being known that they took the fifth they think they can get away with it and something that i saw which is the pernicious waving around the potential for pardons which makes it very hard to flit peep hole and get them to cooperate. there is at least one witness and overuse of pardons to do just that. the sort of threat the ability of the doj to bring a case in the normal course.

normally somebody would be someone that would cooperate and tell the truth. and rarely be charged for what he does here given how low- level he is. he would plead and not do jail time. to me, sort of everything you read is a real sense and gives an inside look. not just at corruption investigation but another window into the presidency and post-presidency and it makes you understand why there are so many that work there that would never endorse him in 1 million years. >> and just raised a great question. i hadn't framed until i heard this, let's put you in the position of defense counsel. -- has gone into do that interview.

he has said what he said. now it is time for the grand jury. you know he can't say that again. he can't say i had no i dia until i was loading them. the story is not going to hold up. obviously, what he did choose to do is go into the grand jury and give different answers. is there a way to do that? a way to go into the grand jury and said dear away from the answers he gave before, in a way that will avoid this kind of indictment by saying i thought about it and as andrew suggests, given what he said in the fbi interview, was this the case where you go in there and hang onto the fifth amendment in the grand jury.

>> tried to imagine putting yourself in the seat of the lawyer. how much did he know about what they had or hadn't done. did they know the full extent of what had occurred compared to what walt nauta had told the fbi before. there is no way i could ever imagine agreeing to let the client walk in there and testify without an arrangement or agreement in advance. we want immunity discussion. we are not going to talk to the grand jury at all unless we have something in place. otherwise we plead the fifth and you get nothing. we don't know what was told back then. it was certainly risky to put walt nauta they are saying what he did . all i could end up

with sergeant schultz from hogan's heroes. as we know, he knew a lot. >> this goes straight to the problem about how walt nauta is being represented. it is trump provided defense counsel that is doing this. it raises questions. where the interests are. it is a classic case. thing he can be helpful. he needs immunity right now. that balance is against this talk. if you are offered a pardon and you are naove enough to trust

that over immunity from the prosecutor, maybe that is why you go into the grand jury this way. you see the pardon at the end. >> a lawyer could not advise that. if they knew the client was planning on lying. you are ethically precluded. >> one thing i can tell you this insider information about how the law developed for secrecy. what happens in the grand jury is secret, under the federal rule of criminal procedure 6. two of the justices who people may have heard of that were real fans of the secrecy were justice brennan and justice marshall who were well known

for being liberal justices. people might think why is that? one of the reasons is they were very concerned about lower- level peep hole being able to tell the truth and speak truth to power. they thought if there was grand jury secrecy it would encourage that ability for people like walt nauta to be able to go in and do that without the fear of higher-ups monitoring what they were doing. that is something that ideally could work. that is if your lawyer was compromised. if he's doing something unethical and representing the boss and not you, that defeats the purpose. >> person 16 seems to give prosecutors a lot of interesting leads to pursue.

for example the talk about a pardon. the way it is presented, it sounds like you're saying that could not get into the trial through person 16 but maybe that leads them on the investigative trail. someone, possibly walt nauta told directly. >> person 16 and what they said is complete hearsay. he could not be admitted for the truth of that statement. it could certainly come up as a rebuttal context. depending on what else comes up in the trial if we ever have one. depending on the kind of case walt nauta and donald trump put on in terms of the presentation. for the moment, looking back, that was clearly a significant lead for the fbi and justice department gave a lot of

insight into different players. person 24 seems to be -- . it reaffirms the idea. you see this all the ideas of personal records being designated are declassification, it is just we believe it automatically happens. we have seen that. thank you for starting the discussions. start coming up, timothy snyder will join us next with his reading of the supreme court argument the herding questions they asked about whether donald trump should have immunity from all crime as president of the united states. ed gutters.

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this makes him a king. not so. is much worse. a king can be subject to law. even george iii was subject to law. the american revolution was justified by the notion that he had overstepped the law. the discussion is something else. the justices are not discussing any constitutional system at all . including a constitutional monarchy. justices are instead flirting with the idea that a single person can be outside any constitutional system, outside the rule of law as such. joining us now is timothy snyder. he is the op of a road to unfreedom. there is something worse than a king? >> of course there. there are lots of kings ruling perfectly democratic countries

in europe. our tradition, coming from the declaration of independence holds that there is natural law but also british law which george iii violated which was the basis for our rebellion. it is not our tradition that there are people that can be above the law as such. the basis of the constitution is every office is given a firm basis of regulation. nothing suggests there are people who can be above the constitution outside the rule of law. that is the danger which hasn't been quite expressed. immunity means there could be a person outside the system. >> arguments fascinate me. they are limited to legal practitioners if they involve so much more so much of the time.

sometimes involving science, sometimes medical science and sometimes history. american history and other history. i often wonder what people who have a lot of the authority, what reaction is to arguments which is why, i am wondering what was going through your mind as a historian, what did you wish you could have told the court? >> very basic points, in holding a hearing on the idea of immunity, you are calling that concept into existence. number 2, point would be if you are a texture list or something like that, there is nothing like immunity and number 3, what the history of comparative law teaches us is there is a tradition in which she said the

constitution is just there for us to wait and find out who is going to break it and then we are going to endorse that person. that tradition is precisely the -- of tradition. this is what worries me. we encountered an individual that tried to put himself above the law and now we flirt with the idea that perhaps it might be all right. >> that is one of the things they never do is look beyond the narrow borders of american law to figure out their own guidance. >> it is a very good example. if you read the 193 pages or whatever it was, you find a lot back and forth and no real conceptual challenge, except by counsel and the justices to the idea that there is such a thing

as a personal immunity. in our tradition, constitution or not, and other traditions at something you are drawn by. you celebrate and find the person that will break the law. that person becomes the leader. the person that was outside the law. i sometimes worry that americans don't see what they are flirting with. >> professor snyder, thank you very much for joining us. coming up, kamala harris made her third trip to the battleground state of georgia to talk about the policies to help black-owned businesses and promote economic opportunity. charles blow joins us from atlanta. that is next. >> your body gives you science. if you are frustrated. frustra.

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kamala harris made her the third campaign trip to georgia this year. in atlanta she met with small business owners. >> you are worthy of and entitled to receive an investment in your dream and your ambition. to seek out the resources that exist and we are trying to make it easier to find those resources. seek them out and no

, it is interesting. there are studies that show black entrepreneurs are often less likely than others to actually apply for a loan for fear they will be rejected. that is pretty significant data. part of my advices go for it. apply for it. get the word out. we don't lack for incredible vision and entrepreneurial creative thought. it is just a matter of let's not let society or history impede or silence those ambitions. >> president biden will deliver the commencement speech at morehouse college, an all-black

college in atlanta on the night 10th. during today's event at the georgia international convention center, kamala harris said this. >> the access capital push that we have made has been about getting more federal dollars into community banks and getting the private sector to and the big banks to invest because they will admit and we know they are not necessarily in the place where we need them situated. access to capital is or encompasses a commitment to also making sure we are doing the teaching to then create access to market. it is about financial literacy. is around helping people start a business and keep the business going. the work we have been doing has been focused on all of these areas. also understanding the context in which we exist which is the

law of disparities and understanding that in spite of those in certain parts of the country want to attack the eia, we understand that you can't truly invest in the strength of the nation if you don't pay attention to diversity, equity and inclusion. >> she also spoke with -- >> we come from a place of understanding that yes it is significant that our policies resulted in black unemployment being at historic lows. it is important to understand like all he will, we are focused on dreams and desires of black men and young black men, it is to have a job but to have a career and be able to grow wealth and build wealth. and be able to buy a home and go on a vacation. to take care family and build

at pitty. that way when their children want to go to college there are some resources to pay for tuition. the work that i am doing in this tour is to speak to about part of her broad-based economic policy about strengthening the economy for everyone as a whole. truly understanding the hopes, desires and ambitions. >> joining us from atlanta, charles, how does this kind of campaigning and delivering the message of what the administration has done economically to what people need to know so they can possibly benefit from some of these programs. how does it get communicated in atlanta and in georgia that she is there and doing this.

doesn't have a real impact? >> it is interesting. the economic pieces really big. we have to understand about georgia, it is an incredible incubator for small business startups. we often think about small businesses as people producing things but often it is services. a lot of people look at on the trump years positively who produce those services. i talk to those people during the primaries. some of the black business owners. men were saying they thought well of those years. the reason is complicated. one of the reasons is during covid, the red state governors,

the lockdowns were short. that probably killed more people. it also helped these businesses provide services. bars were selling drinks out the window. in addition, the covert impact payments helped. they have a good feeling about that from an economic standpoint. the administration is doing something much bigger than emergency measures. their mapping out how to increase the black wealth over long periods. you don't feel it immediately. because you don't feel it immediately, people don't always register that is something happening. part of the administration's job is to help people see it is not an emergency stop gap measure. it is something that will impact you for generations

possibly. definitely over the next decade. how does that translate them if it does into more enthusiasm for economic policy? >> how valuable does the vice president appear to be. >> the vice president is emerging as a powerful tool agent in the campaign. i think she was trying to figure out where her path was and to carve out a space for her. the vice president's job was to be in charge and be the step in if the president is incapacitated and do whatever the president asks. no one looks back on cheney and court biden said these are the things they did separately.

it is not how it works. she was being measured by the strange yard stick. why were receiving she was failing. it is not a lot to do in the job. now there are issues that really tap into her history. tapping into the resume. both the issue of abortion and reproductive assess. the black community and prosperity. those really tap into who she is. she becomes an incredible agent for the campaign. >> thank you for joining the discussion. coming up, donald trump had three days off from his criminal trial. he could've campaigned anywhere in america and he did no campaigning at all.

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nikki haley pulled in 17% of the vote including strong showings in the battleground state's. it could play a role come november and contest that could decide the election by razor thin margins. the results in pennsylvania another primaries highlight persuading voters in cities and surrounding suburbs where the population is younger has more of an education and higher income. entire dream for 158,000 that shows her in the republican primary. on thursday the campaign posted this. on the left biden spending essay speaking to union workers.

sitting in his golf cart. the nikki haley voter looks to be a possible key to the outcome. >> you have former vice presidents in the former nominee. >> they said we are not voting for him. >> continue to underperform in the states. it is a big chunk of the parties that is not sure they're going to follow maga.

will be difficult, particularly when he said he is not interested in nikki haley. is one of the most idiotic things. it is a big issue. is for republicans to not vote republican. >> another difference is donald trump doesn't have a nominee. it is what he's actually doing. but to see vice president harrison atlanta today. i played as much of the video as we had time for. it is such an effective strong delivery.

>> she is operating with a high degree of confidence. she knows the material. she has this confidence or the strength in her performance that is really important. she is going to play a major role in the selection. she worked really hard and has now reached the pinnacle. she is adding value every day. >> thank you for joining us tonight. rybody. but i'm done struggling. now i sleep with inspire. inspire? inspire is a sleep apnea treatment that works inside my body with just the click of this button. a button? no mask?

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