cross-examination. >> and michael cohen will say that donald trump will pay him the money back and that is why the legal services money that he wrote a check for while he was in the oval office, that donald trump knew it was to pay him back for paying stormy daniels to keep her story quiet ahead of the 2016 election, right after the access hollywood tape dropped which we heard about today in court as well. that will do it for me this hour. court is ongoing, but nicolle wallace has it all handled. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi, everyone. it is a big day. 4:00 in new york. quote, i have a blockbuster trump story. six words that would put in motion just about everything that happened next. a scramble from trump allies to suppress a story that could have landed like a bombshell in the

2016 campaign. those words were in a text message sent from keith davidson, he's the attorney for both of the women at the heart of the story. playboy playmate karen mcdougal and porn star stormy daniels. it was a text sent to the national enquirer, dylan howard. and davidson is on the stand right now on day nine of the donald trump election interference hush money trial. with explosive testimony being given right now about his dealings with ami and donald trump's inner most circle. earlier today, he told the court and the jury that dylan howard texted him back a response, quote, talk first thing. i will get you por than anyone for it. you know why. davidson said that he understood even back then that the owner of the national enquirer, that david pecker and donald trump were good friends. two weeks after the texts were

exchanged, karen mcdougal met with howard, where she alleged that she had an affair with donald trump that went on for several weeks to months. and ami declined to pick up mcdoug al's story and returning to the bargaining table ome when abc news wanted it. they expressed interest in talking to mcdougal. but what abc wanted was for her to tell her story. something she didn't want to do. now in late july, dylan howard texted davidson, get me a price on mcdougal. all in, consulting gig. perhaps a fitness expert thrown into the mix. with karen deciding between going public or signing a deal to bury her story with "the national enquirer," she wrote her lawyer keith davidson this, quote, we're going to lay it on thick for her. to which her lawyer keith davidson said, good, throw in in ambassadorship of me. i'm thinking isle of man.

a joke that her deal with ami would help donald trump who was running for president. now when deal was finally done, keith davidson said he called michael cohen, he said, out of quote, professional courtesy to tell him that a deal involving michael cohen's client, donald trump, had closed. so then it came time for keith davidson so describe what happened with his other client, his other client stormy daniels. davidson told the jury today that the release of the access hollywood tape breathed new life into stormy daniels's allegation that she had an affair. he testified that that tape, quote, had tremendous influence on the appeal of stormy's story and that it then fell to him to negotiate the deal to silence stormy daniels with michael cohen once ami backed out: the attorney representing both pulling the curtain back on how the entire scheme to suppress

stories that would have damaged donald trump is where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. with us at the table, former deputy assistant attorney general hairy litman is here. he was back in the courthouse today. also back at the table, correspondent for the hollywood reporter, latch lan cartwright here. and also from the department of justice and legal analyst andrew wiseman and at the courthouse for us, once again, nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard. vaughn, i start with you. this is another day where every time i read my notes, i had to stop, i was that person on the sidewalk staring at my phone. some really gone smacking information for people on the outside of the hush money scheme. talk about the testimony today. >> right. in the text messages that were

transferred between keith davidson who was the attorney representing stormy daniels, and michael cohen, and dylan howard, the editor in chief of the national enquirer bringing us in real time, hour-by-hour as the deliberations were unfolding particularly around the reveal of the access hollywood tape and the suggestion that the came was all about over at that point. but i think an important takeaway here was the conversation that you and i, we were all having coming into this trial. what corroborating testimony and evidence would there be to michael cohen? we now have david pecker and keith davidson who are corroborating and providing backing to claims that michael cohen has made publicly heading into this trial here. and just keith davidson, just this afternoon alone, makes a direct reference to donald trump as part of the karen mcdougal arrangement, in paragraph three, the prosecution asked the question, that, quote, did karen

grant her life rights to the subject manager regarding an affair that she had with a married man. was there a particular married man that you assume this applied to and he responded yes. and when asked who, he said donald trump as it pertained to stormy daniels. on october 11th, 2016, stormy daniels had entered into a contract with michael cohen and as part of that, there were pseudonyms that were given, not only to stormy daniels, but david dennisson, that individual is identified by keith davidson today as being donald trump. so now the jury is heard from this individual who said that donald trump was a party to this contract. whether he was explicitly a part of it, that is still to be seen from keith davidson, but we know that he's so far providing detailed testimony with his conversations about dylan howard, the editor in chief and

michael cohen. and we should expect testimony even here within the next half hour about october 27th. those literal days with michael cohen and donald trump were on the phone as the wire transfer was been initiated. these are details that keith davidson could again to publicly share here in front of the jury. >> and vaughn, you were traveling with mike pence, i was here in the studio most days covering these final frantic days of campaign alongside our former colleague brian williams. i remember each of these news cycles and i think we need time to probably build out this timeline. i want to turn to our lawyers on what you just articulated but i want you to ask one more question about the work that the prosecution did laying out motive. and it is this thing that wasn't unspoken. it was spoken. it was about ambassadorships. now, who gives ambassadorships and only one person gives that and that is the american president. let me read you this.

this is from a text message from dylan. we're going to lay it on thick for her. at this point karen was teetering between two competing deals an we requested a meeting with each entity to make a pitch as to why they were the correct avenue for karen. how did it respond. good. throw in an ambassadorship for me, i'm thinking isle of mann and i was making a joke, i don't think it is even a country or that they have an ambassador. it was a reference to trump's candidacy. what do you mean by that. question? answer from keith davidson, quote, this would help his candidacy. question from the prosecutor, is it safe to assume that from your joke it was your belief if you were there close to a deal it would somehow benefit the candidate donald trump? keith davidson, yes. >> we're going to lay it on thick. that is one of the text messages. we're doing to lay it on thick for her to execute this deal.

you've been a part of campaigns, i've covered a number of them, and if anybody covering these campaigns or the public at large should become familiar with the details, right, the legality aside, just politically here, of the lengths to which somebody is going through in order to tamp down or cover up a story, it is laid out in the form of those text messages. that we were not all privy to in 2016. these don't come into light until well into donald trump's presidency. so when you ask about the stakes here and joking about an ambassadorship, real or not, i think for us, i was talking with producer dan who i was on the road with back in 2016 as we were going through all of this and if we have known in real time the lengths to which donald trump and perhaps even mike pence knew the lengths to which donald trump was going to suppress the salacious stories about him, i think that perhaps the country would be at a different point in its reckoning

with where it finds itself in moral campus when it comes today than in in the year 2024. >> and that is the $64 million question that we'll have to grapple with and in the opening the prosecutors lay that out. we'll never know. we'll never know the political impact of the suppression of these stories, the silencing of these women. but we do know from the testimony today that trump's motive was to keep them away from the voters. i want to read a little bit more from the exchanges between dylan howard, we talked about last week, who is unavailable to come to new york and be part of the trial because of some health issues. >> spinal injuries was told to the jury. >> and keith davidson. so, they put up for the jury a july 28th, 2016 text message between dylan howard and keith davidson that said i need this to happen.

he said, i interpreted it he wanted it to happen. is it a deal between ami and the prosecutors, and keith davidson, yes. the need for karen mcdougal to go for ami isn't just competitive. it is about what could happen to her story. >> and you could sense the urgency in the messaging going back and forth. dylan howard loved texting and i could almost hear his voice as these texts are read in court. but, you know, there is this situation going on with abc that -- and keenl davidson is almost playing off of abc against ami, but there is this urgency to make sure that karen mcdoug al's story is purchased off the market and by american media. >> tell me about what was being shelved in real time? you have this epiphany because you're on the outside of the collusive relationship between pecker and trump.

to aid his candidacy. but tell me what you would imagine dillon howard's dealings would have been like just having known him. >> well they were incredibly close and this is been brought up by david pecker in testimony. saying that he was his top sources. and keith davidson was in contact with howard at least a few times a week. so i could see behind the scenes both of them hashing out this deal trying to figure out a way that, you know, it would be good for both men. there was actually a situation where i was out with dylan howard during this period and he passed me a watch and i thought it was a knockoff rolex and i was wearing it and sort of having a good time and i came home and i put the watch over and left it on and he called me the next day in a panic and said where is that watch and i said i've got it here. what is the problem. and said that is a real rolex and i said sorry and he said it

is a gift from keith. and that is how close they were. there were gifts going on and presents back and forth. and you could see why there was that close relationship. because keith davidson played an integral role in delivering karen mcdougal and stormy daniels. >> andrew weissmann, jump in on the the legal significance of keith davidson's testimony today. >> there is -- i sort of have a different take slightly than what vaughn said and some of it may just be wording. which is, i think that the start of this trial is so powerful because it is wrong for us -- i think we have to recalibrate the lens through which we were think being this case. we were thinking, michael cohen is the star witness and how will they corroborate michael cohen. and i really think the way to think about this case is this case is made very much without michael cohen. i mean, this is so corroborated

and it is not just that you have david pecker and now keith davidson, they're stories are just hand and glove. i mean, they fit together so perfectly. and they tell a complex story. i mean, something that if you were making it up, it wouldn't be -- it would be kind of intricacy and also it is completely corroborated particularly with respect to mr. davidson by so many texts and email exchanges an the written documents. this is one where with almost every question there is a reference to a document so that the jurors could see there is no question about what he is saying. it is completely backed up. so by the time you get to michael cohen, i think the way that i think this is going to be summed up on by the prosecution, is to say, you know what, if

michael cohen had said anything else, you would have thought he was lying. it is so completely consistent with this story. the whole idea that michael cohen had to essentially take over the role of the national enquirer because they no longer were willing to be, as we heard from mr. pecker, the bank. and so there was this scramble at the last minute about how michael cohen would come up with the money to replace the money that national enquirer had been focusing on. the other person who may have end up being a witness as you heard a lot about the general counsel of ami who put the kibosh on this when he learned about what was going on from david pecker. you have testimony today that the general counsel of ami instructed davidson to have to -- that he had to deal with michael cohen. meaning that the national enquirer wanted no part of this because they understood that campaign finance problem. and that is the piece of

evidence that the jury has not heard but we're aware of, which is dylan howard is at the end of the day saying, you know what, at least i'm going to get a pardon for what we just did. that he was very aware of the illegality, the campaign illegality of this entire scheme. >> andrew weissmann, we're talking about dylan howard again. it is day nine. i think about eight of them have been dominated between david pecker and now keith davidson, why do you think that he isn't showing up and i'm not suggesting that -- that the illness or the injury isn't real. but why not by zoom or by telephone if he's so central to the very credible testimony of david pecker and keith davidson? >> well, i'm sure he has counsel. and i'm pretty sure his counsel is saying, keep your head down and unless they could force you to testify.

in other words, he obviously, but engaging in the scheme, are not concerned about the public good or the public interest. one of the strengths of david pecker, which is complete lack of remorse for what he -- when you think about what he has testified to, it is intentional defamation and election fraud. for the winning candidate. and so, you know, you could imagine that dylan howard and with advice of counsel is saying i'm going to keep my head down. he's in a jurisdiction that it would be hard for new york, remember this is new york state to reach him if he is in australia and has an inability to travel. that all of that would make it very hard. but i agree with you. it is not quite hamlet without hamlet. but maybe it is like mcbeth without yago. >> i was thinking the january 6 select committee without mark

meadows but you're so fancy. i'm like the uncultured one at table. let me ask you to pick up on this. and let me read you a little bit more of these exchanges. so, this is the prosecutor. did you understand why ami would purchase a story it didn't intend to print. keith davidson, there were two reasons. they were trying to build karen mcdougal and the second was an unspoking understanding that there was a close affiliation between ami and donald trump and they wouldn't run her story because it would hurt donald trump. and when you say hurt donald trump, you mean his campaign? you've now, again, got a second central player, pecker was a co-conspirator with donald trump, keith davidson represents the two women's whose stories were bought and silenced said yeah. >> we have a spiraling narrative where they are reinforcing from

different sides and the most important evidence was from donald trump's mouth. no one has mentioned it yet but we had a c-span where he denies any sexual contact with them and also said if 5% of the electorate believe this, i'm going to lose. that is coming from his mouth. on michael cohen, look, i basically agree with andrew. that is the goal, they're trying very hard to have a 360 degree corroboration. to say it is really interesting in court. he's been trashed repeatedly. i'm sure the jury is very interested to hear from him. davidson today said he spoke with cohen because the short -- nobody wants to and he was forced to it. he's really in many ways been disparaged already and i'm sure the jury is hungry. they have a lot, but there are going to come some points at the actual documents where cohen,

apart from the little snippet of tape with trump, kind of stand as loan. but what they are trying to build and so far successfully is a case that at closing argument, that could say two things about cohen. first, corroborated like crazy and second, what are they trying to suggest here. why would he, even if you don't think he's a honorable guy, what he's he doing? $130,000 when you know he can't spend a nickel without trump's approval. there is no theory there. it is scatter shot. but they are -- >> but i think andrew is going further. he's saying -- we had looked at this through a lens because cohen was out first because he went to jail for his role in covering this up for donald trump's campaign. but i think my point, my understanding of andrew's point is that cohen went in 25 times, they confirmed today to bragg. and clearly with the 25 meetings, what do you know, who else was there?

david pecker, and who else was in the room, hope hicks. so the story the jury will hear isn't in the chronology that we understand it. because cohen has been public because he went to jail for covering up donald trump's relationships with porn stars and playmates. what the jury is hearing is david pecker's story is trump's best friend who still reveres him and the attorney tells the same story that david pecker told and then he saw the tape. by the time cohen gets up, you'll have to me some guy who has been disparaged so many times, he got david pecker, hope hicks and c-span, that is ludicrous. >> yes and no. i think that is the chief strategy of the d.a. i bet we see him in the middle of the case somewhere, try to get him off quickly. but on the other hand the certainty piece for sure of what

the defense will do will try to keep him on the stand, two, three days and as i say, there are -- they are doing it effectively but i don't know if they could circle. >> what if they don't call him. >> that wouldn't happen. >> andrew weissmann, any disagreement there? >> no, i think that going to call him. to harry's point, they do need to remember the core of the charge are the false business records. now, those are completely connected to the scheme that david pecker and keith davidson have laid out. so, the reason it is a felony is there. the who is benefiting is there. and frankly, the whole idea of why you would create false business records is there. in other words, it is integral to the scheme that no one knows about the scheme so you're not going to write the records that say these are my payments to a porn star. so, but i do think that there is

a piece that you're going to want to get from him. but this is a very skilled trial team. they did the trump org case, which was led to a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt, a criminal case. and they knew how to put on jeff mcconnie, a trump organization hostile witness. so they're going to distance themselves from michael cohen and think they'll go quite well with him. >> there is so much more around this motive an the time capsule that vaughn and i keep trying to bring everybody back to in the release of the political carnage when that access hollywood tape came out. we'll come back to where the testimony focused in on that. we'll continue to monitor what is happening right now. keith davidson is still on the stand right now. everyone sticks around. still to come, we're talking to an attorney that has prosecuted mob bosses and we'll look at how judge juan merchan would protect the jurors and the witnesses

should trump's taunts get any more vitriolic in this high-profile trial. and the ex-president previewing how far he would go if re-elected to the presidency. can the democratic guardrails in this country hold if that happens? we'll talk about that and much, much more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. with e*trade from morgan stanley, we're ready for whatever gets served up. dude, you gotta work on your trash talk. i'd rather work on saving for retirement. or college, since you like to get schooled. that's a pretty good burn, right?

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>> if 5% of the people think it's true and maybe 10% think, we don't -- we don't win. >> so, the dates on those public remarks from trump, october 22nd and october 14th. both of those were entered into evidence today. this testimony also presented to the jury. prosecutors in the summer of 2016, did you come to learn about the release of something known as the access hollywood tape. keith davidson, yes. what impact if any did the release of the tape on interest in the stormy daniels story and answer from keith davidson, as far as i'm aware, it had tremendous impact. before the access hollywood tape came out there was very little interest that gina was trying to sell the story but it wasn't until the access hollywood tape hit that there was a crescendo. tell us about who gina is. >> a manager in los angeles and as david pecker testified, a key

source for dylan howard. and she was representing stormy daniels and a number of other different people but she gets in touch with dylan howard in the summer of '16 shopping the story and there is little interest then. and then why the timeline is so essential, there is a lot of interest after the access hollywood tape. >> vaughn, access hollywood tape comes out and when that dropped was that the thing that trump wanted to do was go upstairs and face melanie and when i heard she was in a white bathrobe and crying and what trump kept saying on the elevator up, is that trump on the tape talking about himself in the third person. this was a crisis for his came, reince priebus wanted to take him off the ticket. nobody would go on the sunday shows except rudy. and a lot of people thought the campaign was over.

entering the stormy daniels story. >> reporter: and it was a republican party that was still trying to justify largely the craftness of donald trump and the man who had become their nominee rather unexpectedly for much of the brass that continues to operate in the republican party from paul ryan to ted cruz, to marco rubio to reince priebus and sean spicer, long part of the republican party predating donald trump. and mike pence joined the ticket as the evangelical from indiana who would make the case to millions of americans that this was a good, decent christian man. that he's worthy of your vote. and this moment only raised the specter for them of the difficulty of making that case and potentially jeopardizing their own credibility beyond what the expectation that donald trump loses in november, beyond that because at one point in time, they had stood on stage

and defended donald trump for his actions. and i was with mike pence on that very day. we landed in indiana. he canceled the campaign stop the following day in wisconsin. and this was a moment where there was talk of whether mike pence would stay on the ticket or not. there was a turbulent period of time. there was a campaign event in ohio where jim jordan came. congressman jim jordan is here and now it is funny to look back at that moment. that he would come in an event let alone one with mike pence. but that was the substance at the time. was being surprised that jim jordan was willing to still stick his neck out for donald trump after the access hollywood tape. these were dire times and for the following weeks folks were talking, i remember among journalists, who is going to run in 2020 on the republican side. it wasn't about donald trump and at that point in time. having another story drop at that point, talk about the final

explosion. i mean, it would have been incomprehensible at that point. >> and andrew weissmann, the legal significance of this political context is that even trump believed this to be the case. because trump after david pecker said, quote, i'm not a bank, end quote, became the bank. and that is why the testimony that began the day today was with michael cohen's banker and again anyone that dealt with michael cohen could arrive at any of these personal conclusions. but to your point and harry's point, about the crux of the crime, is around the payment that was fraudulently presented to cover up payments to women to impact the election. and i want to read you more testimony that goes exactly to trump's motive to do that. to commit those financial crimes. what did you say the prosecutor asked. these are texts between keenl davidson and dylan howard right after the access hollywood tape

comes out. answer. i said trump is f'd. you wrote the whole word out? i did. and how did dilland howard response. wave the white flag. it is over people. even in trump's world it was, quote, over. and stormy daniels would have been the final nail in the coffin, andrew. >> look, the defense has a very, very hard road here to come up with some plausible story, a narrative that is different, because you have to disbelieve, as you pointed out, too many witnesses and too many sources of evidence. you have to believe that all of this was going on to benefit donald trump who just happened to benefit, but he didn't know about it. and it took him by surprise. and yet it also was not just benefiting him, it was

benefiting him particularly with respect to stormy daniels at a time that as you and vaughn are talking about, was so absolutely critical to his campaign and you now have in his own words the jury hearing that he thought it was critical to his campaign. so, you would really have to believe that michael cohen did all of this and was reimbursed and all of the calls with donald trump and that donald trump knew anything about it at all. it just becomes so implausible as to why you would be doing that. i mean, remember, michael cohen had sort of bragging rights for this. in other words, this is not something that he would sheepishly tell donald trump he's doing under this theory. he would be going, look at what i did for you, boss, like a dog coming in with a pheasant in its mouth. like i was able to come up with the money to pay off stormy daniels and be the bank that

david pecker was refusing. so, i am your new david pecker and i actually took out a freaking home equity line of credit in order to do it. so, you know, i think that it is a very hard job to figure out what is the counter narrative that is remotely plausible here. >> well it will be what you and harry, i think, have been inclined to point out on our air, with other people that haven't dug into sort of inconvenient fact pattern for donald trump and it is the low hanging fruit. he went to prison for his role in the hush money scheme. but when you start to sort of craft the fact pattern and i think people that cover the campaign and in these days and i sat in this room next to brian williams covering the -- i've never seen -- i mean i've worked on candidates or candidates who have an october -- i've never seen anything like the access hollywood tape that would blow up and it was followed by the russian hacking of the hillary

clinton campaign which was followed by the comby, wiener, houma laptop. it was a extraordinary period of time and a jury would have to believe extraordinary things to believe that michael cohen, whatever they think of him, was engaged in a criminal election conspiracy for his own benefit. we're going to keep this going. i have to let vaughn hillyard go. thank you for all of your reporting today. everybody else sticks around. up next for those of us staying, donald trump's mob boss tendencies have been on full display all nine days of testimony. we'll talk to someone with experience in toz types of cases next. (restaurant noise) [announcer] introducing allison's plaque psoriasis. she thinks her flaky gray patches are all people see. otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis. allison!

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this is amazing. whether you want to say 'happy birthday'. so cute! or i love you. i love you too. thinking of you. wow! go to 1-800flowers.com celebrate the people you love. just three weeks into his first criminal trial, the ex-president already seemed unhappy with his legal team. "the new york times" reporting thattize has gripped that todd blanche and veteran litigator has not been following his instructions and has been insufficiently aggressive. trump wants to him to attack the witnesses and the judge. judge juan merchan. they add trump has vented to others that he does not have a roy cone. a reference to his runlless former who represents trump in his formative business years was indicted and disbarred. it is part of a pattern from the

ex-president who wants a mafia style lawyer to fight for limb. here is what jim comey had to say about that. >> i had a flashback to my days investigating the mafia, la cosa, nostra. we're all part of the messaging, we're all part of the effort, the boss is at head of the table and we're going to figure out together how to do this. >> at the time, a lot people thought he sounded crazy to say that and now we're three or four gag orders in. joining us at the table, david kelly from the southern district of new york represented james comey after the 2016 election. i'm a big fan of your appearance with my colleague ari melber. i'm a fan. i know ari gets to talk to you. i'm not a lawyer so if the questions are down a level i apologize in advance. but tell me the impression of

the case so far. >> well he's not a lawyer, the defendant here and he's trying to act like a lawyer and doing a things that a good trial lawyer wouldn't do. and even roy cone, when i was quite young, i was in court with roy cone. he knew how to modulate, he knew how to appeal to a judge. and what trump appears to be telling his lawyers here don't really work all of the time. you can't be a bull in a china a shop. juries tend to like the judge and if you alienate the judge the jury sees it. if the judge suggests that he doubts the credibility of the lawyers, which clearly he does here, he said as much, that wears off and the jury sees that. and it is very difficult and it is difficult for the lawyers to sell their case and what andrew weissmann was just saying it is a very difficult narrative they have to begin with and i think

their client is making it much more difficult for them. >> what do you think about the -- what you've seen in terms of the pacing and if there is a production consideration of prosecutors but of introducing the alleged conspiracy with david pecker, someone who still likes donald trump an awful lot and then bringing in keith davidson, who was very much in this world. >> i think the way they presented their case from the moment they did the opening until their first witness and what we've heard today has been masterful. because they've had to lay out the story and they've had to say why it is important. why should they care about this. how does it really tie into what was really going on. it is not just about some fault entries, it is about a bigger story. not too big of a story. but important story. >> do you think that on the question, i mean alvin bragg have said in public statements, that is is cheating and election interference and everyone

involved in the hush money scheme and the financial and underpinnings of it understand to be the case, this could damage trump's came. >> and it takes it from the realm of hush money to election interference. but more important, it takes it from the realm of hush money to creating some false documents so that we could keep this campaign going. and that is what i really think is what they appear to be doing and doing it well through the testimony of the witnesses, is to paint that picture. >> do you see the judge able to sort of -- i won't want to use the word restrain, because that is how trump uses it, but manage his courtroom in the way he wants to. you've dealt with mob cases and i imagine there are some of the same concerns and bigger platform and taunting and harassing and explaining about witnesses an jurors. >> and look, and you get judges who can't control the courtroom and the lawyers run amok. and that is a disaster. often for the prosecution.

this judge seems to be controlling the courtroom very well. but very thoughtfully. he's not just an iron fist, but he's also being very thoughtful about how he exercises his judgment and discretion. i think he's doing a very thoughtful job and consequently it is very clear whose courtroom it is. it is not the prosecutors, it is not the defense lawyers, it is the judge's and that is an important tone to set and he did it early on. >> there is, i think on the 10 alleged violation of the gag order, the judge ruled in favor of nine of them and left open the possibility of jailing him if he can't stop, trump took town the offending posts. what should the judge be balancing when it comes to trump attacking witnesses? >> well, look, he talks about the first amendment, political speech. the problem for trump's side is

that he wants to say that anything coming from a candidate is political speech. the problem from a legal perspective is that what political speech is isn't really well defined and it has to be taken into particular context. there is on old saying from one of the justices of the supreme court and in this pornography case, i know when it when i see it. so you know it when you see it but it is not whatever comes out of a candidate's mouth. and you have to take that into context. i thought he approached what he did today in his ruling very thoughtfully and as he parsed it out a little bit and letting him get a little bit of leeway here and there. but the statute doesn't permit to fine more than $1,000 and he knows that this supposed billionaire, a thousand dollars a shot doesn't mean an awful lot. so if i can hit him with the money, i'm going to hit him with bars. >> if i could add something quick about that. in court he was notably soft

spoken, straightforward, all business. >> yeah. >> and now when you go to the order, and you could see, he is actually raising the hammer and his next step is to bring it down. but it was very noteworthy. and i agree with david, he doesn't let people gas on about objections, it is very business like and soft spoken. he interjected not all that much but that makes him all the more forceful. it was really evident when he gave his rules on the contempt. >> and this afternoon, he sustained a whole series of defense counsel's objections. so he's not being one-sided here. he's being a real judge. >> what is amazing, too, is i feel like in the world of television, the world of journalism and in the world of any kind of journalism, your telling a story. what the prosecutors have to do is tell a story and do you find it as masterful as the lawyers do? >> yes. very much so.

from the moment i sat down in court last monday and saw david pecker, who i hadn't seen since the summer of 2017 and working through our keenl davidson who played such a pivotal role as we continue on. just building when we get to michael cohen and then obviously the defense will attack his credibility. but by that stage, we've really built up this narrative, this story line quite convincingly. and i know the story pretty well because i lived it. but it is incredible insight into this world of fixers and payoffs and ndas. and it is all backed up in text messages and bits of paper and recordings. >> yeah, i mean, so we brought back jim comey because i remember when he said that about trump. some people recoiled, but anyone that had gone in and worked at the white house, the first scandal that don mcgahn faced was the ndas. and that is how trump operated. it is not normal in politics, it is normal in trump's world and i

wonder how you feel in presenting this violent collision between someone refused or unwilling to abide by the rules of a presidential candidate to the point where laws are broken. >> think everybody you heard in the testimony fits in nicely with what jim comey described. if you're in trump world, your a friend of ours and it means you have allegiance to the boss and to the family. so you have allegiance to trump world and the allegiance is built on fair fear and you heard that from the testimony of pecker. you heard it today from davidson in so far as he described how cohen conducted himself. and cohen trying to communicate to others to have the same fear of his boss that he has. using that as a cudgel to try to get the deal done. so i think it is -- you can draw that parallel. >> well i have to sneak in a

break. if you're prosecuting an organized crime case, how do you make a member of an organized crime family palatable to a jury. because folks like harry keep reminding me they're going to savage michael cohen. we'll be right back with that. sn we'll be right back with that. it's a beautiful... ...day to fly. wooooo!

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but so is your sound engineer. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire wow. -incredible, isn't it? -yeah. matching your job description. well, with your home, auto, boat and rv all bundled with progressive you've got the peace of mind to really wander. yeah. yeah, i just hope it stays this way. once word gets out about these places they tend to -- -are you done? -aaand there it is. well, at least your vehicles are protected. let's hit the road. hey fam! i'm just at this beautiful lake that i just discovered. practicing gratitude, manifesting abundance. you're getting upset? >> yes, i mean look there was a lengthy contract that was signed

and executed. there was a funding deadline and the funding deadline was missed. so the contract was cancelled. there was no deal. and it was shortly after that contract was missed that the "access hollywood" tape aired. it was almost immediately after the tape aired that the settle thement came back on. then there was a second agreement signed and reexecuted. >> so again, cause and effect. "access hollywood" tape comes out. we know that david pecker didn't want to be the bank anymore so michael cohen does the deal. sdny had access to all this information. it's clear that david pecker was deep hi motivated and eager for an immunity deal. it's clear that howard talked to the as well. i worked on campaigns. it's obvious that election laws in spirit were violated. why do you think that case was never prosecuted? >> my guess would be that some

of the requirements for knowledge and intent on behalf of the former president were probably a little stiffer, more difficult to meet than they are in this particular case. so a federal election law, i believe in some of of the statutes, you need specific knowledge about the law and an intent to violate it. here they don't have those same requirements. and so that maybe the issue. >> but edwards was not necessarily believed to have understood the laws, but he had campaign counsel. is it the stupidity defense? like trump didn't know them? >> in any case, you have to prove knowledge and intent. if you don't have knowledge of the federal election law, you can't have the intent. edwards had a different situation. they were able to prove that. my guess is that the southern district probably thought we're going to have trouble proving that. there's no one who can say, hey

boss, the election law says this. you can't do x or y. i didn't know they were thinking that about the election law when they actually made these changes. they were thinking about changing the course of the campaign when that was essentially over. and doing that by using false filings and hush money and so forth, but i don't know that they had an actual intent to aearth vad the election law, which is what they'd have to prove. >> what do you do with michael cohen as a witness? >> as a witness, it's like putting on a mob witness. you put on a mob wps, you can put somebody on the stand that's murder 15. we did that countless times. the whole point is you have to let it all come out. >> trust jury. >> you could spend your first day on the stand just soliciting the bad acts of your witness

before you even get to the substance of the particular trial. but you bring it all out. you let the jury see who you're dealing with. he's scum, but this is the scum that that defendant chose to hang out with. that's his guy. and it's all that scum. but on top of that, let me show you over the next few days through the testimony of one of the witnesses how i can corroborate each and everything that witness said. that's why you should believe him. you should also think the defendant is scum buzz he was hanging with this guy. >> in this case, they did that first. you heard it from pecker. >> yes, but there's got to be more corroboration to come. so by doing that, i think presented their story well. peker was a good starting witness, but it achieved the goal of laying the groundwork for cohen so they don't have an immediate bad taste.

they can say, yeah, that sounds familiar. he's testifying about things we already heard about. we heard about it from a witness that i believe. >> it's is so interesting. thank you all. thank you very spending time with us. up next for us, as we have been talking about, we'll continue with this historic trial. the first ever criminal trial of an american ex-president. that ex-president at a pretty challenging day in court. the details of a scream he worked to cover up were blown wide ow open in front of the jury today. a fierce critic of donald trump's, who was once in inner circle, joins the table from outside the courthouse. we'll have that after a short break. don't go anywhere. hat after a s break. don't go anywhere.

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hi, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. continuing with our special

coverage of donald trump's criminal trial. betts go back in time for a second to october 2016 right after the "access hollywood" tape had been republicly and sent shock waves throughout the trump campaign, across the country, throughout politics. the american people had just heard the then republican presidential candidate say i can grab them in the "p" word. trump allies were under immense pressure to save the republican campaign. >> enter keith davidson. he was a major source for ami. he was also the lawyer for adult film star stormy daniels, whose story she had an affair donald trump was circulating behind the scenes. keith davidson testified to how tabloid interest in stormy's storm had reached a crescendo after the release of the "access

hollywood" tape. keith davidson testified today that he worked with michael cohen, trump's lawyer, to negotiate stormy daniels' $130,000 hush money deal that would stop her from going public with her story before the election. while keith davidson said in testimony today before the jury that he worked directly with michael cohen, he also said he understood that trump was the driving force keith davidson got off the witness stand a few minutes ago. he will return on thursday when court is back in session. prosecution will likely finish up their questioning of of him and then keith davidson will face cross-examination from donald trump's defense team. before keith davidson took the stand today, the day began with a legal defeat for the ex-president. the judge in this case ruled that donald trump had indeed

violated the gag order placed on him for this trial holding him in criminal contempt. trump now has to pay $9,000 for 9 public statements he made attacking potential witnesses on the and the jury. those posts have been deleted, but the judge warned donald trump that jail time is a possibility for the ex-president if he continues to violate the gag order. it's where we start the hour. conservative attorney and contributor to the atlanta joj is back withes us. joining us is susan craig. we start with you and your glorious notebook. what happened today? >> i listened to the show on the way up. if i think about what actually struck me the most, it was 3:30 where keith was pushed back into 2016 in those moments around the

"access hollywood" tape. i felt like and everything that was going on and the harry moments where they had come to an agreement to pay stormy daniels. then all of a sudden, the money isn't coming. he is e-mailing michael cohen. he's saying, where is the money? and michael cohen has all these reasons why he can't. i don't your wire transfer information. keith davidson had sent it yesterday. he said we're having technical problems. i can't get it to you. he was doing everything he could not to come up with the money and his client is calling him constantly. he's getting calls for stormy daniels, her representative, where is the money? and then at one point, there's another call the that happens. and michael cohen says, fine, i'm going to do it myself. my boss is in five states.

i just can't deal with all of this. i can't reach them. i'm going to do it myself. >> what kind of witness is keith davidson? >> i thought he was a strong witness. he is limited, which we'll talk about in a minute. but his demeanor was great. he's somewhat limited in his contact. he's dealing with michael cohen. he's not dealing with donald trump. which is a difference between what we saw with pecker when with we had two principals speaking to each other we had conversations between pecker and donald trump. but then the thing is he would say he knew the campaign was involved, but we nvr heard how he knew he thought they were trying to kick the can down the road and paying stormy daniels, but we never learned why.

there were no objections to things that i'm not a lur, but all the lawyers in the overflow room was i can't believe there aren't more objections. >> maybe they know what paper trail will reveal. they are writing holy. >> it could be. but then the other thing i was thinking today is michael cohen and i'm wondering two things. it seemed like the government was potentially laying some groundwork for michael cohen to sort of numb the jury a little bit. but i was always thinking that michael cohen when he gets on the witness stand is really going to have to meet the michael cohen that he was when he worked for donald trump. i thought keith davidson, he never wanted to teal with michael cohen. never wanted to get a call the from him because all he said michael cohen did was scream at him. he wanted everything now. he was a screamer. and keith davidson at the end

wrote him a note saying, the deal with with stormy is off. i'm no longer her lawyer because he didn't want to get anymore calls from him. and several times keith davidson talked about how he hated dealing with michael cohen. i think michael cohen is going to have to face the michael cohen that he was for years. >> there's a danger in that, too. if he comes up and he smiles and doesn't seem as awful as some people have made him out to be, he could get himself a second look from the jury. >> there's i think the idea behind the testimony of davidson was to take a little weight off of cohen. the first part of the testimony, which was about mcdougal were really served to corroborate the testimony that david pecker gave which was complete to establish what was going on with karen

mcdougal. the next was all the detail about what happened with cohen. what happened is there were a lot of questions where you wonder where the objection was because the witness had never spoken directly to donald trump. and he was saying some things about donald trump that cohen was acting on behalf of donald trump. but one really amazingly helpful testimony, a little bit aside from that, is that essentially when he got hauled in to do the deal, he basically was told you don't really have to do anything. this is just a reformulation of the deal that stormy daniels' agent had already worked out with ami. asks that's critical testimony because it shows that stormy daniels' transaction as it was completed was part and parcel of the entire scheme that dated

back to when david pecker visited trump tower. however, toward the end of the day, and i don't know whether susan left before this happened, the prosecution got completely bogged with objections. the witness said that he thought the reason why -- he didn't believe cohen with all the excuses. he went on about that and then he said, and basically he thought the problem was donald trump was tight with his money. and then there was one further response that the prosecution clearly wanted to get out from the witness which was you understood in theened trump was going to pay the money. and the witness didn't quite understand what the prosecutor was trying. the prosecutor pulls out the grand jury testimony of davidson and says why don't you read this

to yourself. the defense objects and there's a side bar. and to make a long story short, the way this works in court, you can refresh somebody's recollection with prior testimony, grapd jury deposition or with a paper towel, it doesn't matter. only if the witness says that he has a failure of recollection. so the objection ended up being sustained, and then the prosecutor went back to try to figure out a way to get the witness to say whatever it was that he wanted the witness to say in his grand jury testimony and he got all bogged up and there was a series of objections. it didn't go well for the prosecution. and i think what was going on was they wanted to end the day with whatever that testimony was and i think what happened is the prosecution spent too much effort trying to end on that note. sometimes when you're in court, there's going to be a disconnect with a witness and what you need

to do is sometimes just move on, particularly when you know you can bring the witness back the next day. that's what they ended up doing, but there was a lot of confusion in front of the jury that was unfortunate. >> let me show you something that seemed to ring through loud and clear. he worked for c-span. c-span received a document from the district attorney's office to turn over certain videos of trump. these were the videos that were played for the jury today. >> they are trying to poison the mind of the american voter. every woman lied when they came forward to hurt my campaign. >> the 5% of the people think it's true and maybe 10%. we don't win. >> he doesn't read a pdb, but he

read a poll. i thought of your testimony at the table when you reminded us about being at dinner with kellyanne conway and trump's interest in the karen mcdougal interview. one of things that the jury will understand is that he was lying when he said those things. talk about the significance of the c-span videos. >> there's no question he was lying. i this was part of of the impeachment material. this would be used to impeach trump, if he ever testiies. it's very, very good evidence for the prosecution to get in. i think what was interesting about this testimony with there was a lot of time wasted on procedural aspects on the rules of evidence to get these tapes in. because there's no question these tapes are authentic. they say what they say but trump made them spend like an hour

trying to get this stuff into evidence. they did that also with the witness from first republic. it's like so bizarre because trump goes out there complaining i'm here stead instead of out on the campaign trail. his lawyers could have short circuited this by say we don't dispute the authenticity of the tapes. but any way, i think the tapes are helpful. there was another one from the deposition of trump and e. jean carroll case where basically trump said yeah, i use truth social. i think they are going to use that to establish to get in some of the statements that trump has brought in through truth social. i think as i mentioned today, they are going to try to use some of the contempt statement today. to dishim on the witness stand, should he testify.

>> another thing that happened today that we mentioned here at the top is that the judge threatened trump with jail. the prosecution had alleged 10 violations. the judge ruled in favor of of the prosecutors on nine of those. trump owes $9,000, which the judge seemed to understand was peanuts to donald trump. but he did threaten him with jail time. a former prosecutor just made an interesting point about juries and judges. he said that the jury is very cognizant of the treatment of the judge. they view the judge as the person -- someone had a dental emergency and so court was cancelled. the judge is an advocate for the jurors. i wonder if you can weigh in on trump's comportment as a criminal defendant. >> i think very much so with the judge, you saw there was somebody, a juor who wanted to

leave a day before the memorial long weekend because they had a plane ticket so there's no court that day now. he's very accommodating to them and just the way he speaks to them, he's their advocate in court. you have to wonder, we watch him, i'm sitting in the overflow room and you see he has his eyes closed a lot. you wonder how there's jokes that are made about this and his misdemeanor is this or that. let's talk about why that matters. it's on the late night shows. but it matters for two reasons. the juries are left with an impression they can't not be watching him. they would be watching any defendant, let alone a former president of the united states. the second thing about his demeanor in court that i think is significant compared to i have seen him in other court settings is he is not lashing out in court in front of there's just been a judge there. there's no jury present.

he will act out in the courtroom. he's not doing that now because he knows that the penalty for doing that will be swift. he will go to jail if he does it. he was slapped on the wrist. he was huffing and puffing in front of a perspective juror and he got spoken to immediately. so i think his misdemeanor is important for those two reasons, if not more, but particularly those two. >> george, does he know you're there? >> he did. he learned that after the first break, as he was leaving the courtroom walking down the center sooil aisle. i was sitting five or six rows back. and he saw me and gay me a dirty look. i grinned at him. and it was anticlmatic, but i did get the sense it wasn't a warm and fuzzy look he gave me.

>> you have ab interesting vantage point. you know him, you know him personally. what is your sense of what the internal combustion is like, the need to sort of restrain himself in court with the jurors watching and the judge in control. this is not his forum. and who he is. he doesn't live in a house. he lives in his own club so so there will be fake receiving lines for him. he's not used to being this out of control. >> right. he's a narcissist. narcissists are bsessed with control. he's also a sociopath. and they don't believe in following rules. they have difficulty in doipg that. i will say he has been on his best behavior. it may be because of the judge. he knows that this judge may throw him in the clink. but also it might have something to do with the fact that maybe

the point has been made to him that part of the reason why he got hit with an judgment down the street is because he acted out in front of the jury. in the middle of proceedings and otherwise making kind of making himself look like a jerk. from behind, it's hard to see exactly what he's doing all the time. one of my colleagues in the room said he thought that trump fell asleep at one point, but didn't get the sense he was doing anything in the sense it was disrespectful to the court or the judge in front of the jury. obviously, he has been disrespecting the court outside in the courthouse and outside the courthouse, but not in the courtroom. >> what are you looking forward to on thursday? >> we're going to thursday return to the sanctions for the violation of the gag order.

i think that's going to be first thing. he decided some today, but there's still a few outstanding. i think tla will be it. and then we're going to return to keith davidson. we're going to hear a lot more about how those deals went down from his vantage point. and then the cross-examination. >> will we hear from dylan howard? >> if i was a betting person, i would say no. he's in australia. at one point the government lawyers referred to keith davidson as mr. howard. his presence is everywhere, but he's not there. but we have to hear from text messages and else e-mails. >> zoom is a thing. we'll continue to call on you. thank you very much for coming here. when we back, for months we

heard allies of the disgraced ex-talk about what he would do if he were reelected to be the president. now we're hearing in his own words. the chilling plans that would offend american democracy. we'll bring you that, after a short break. plus we'll get a live report from columbia university, pro palestinian protesters have taken over a university building. they continue to defy orders to disperse. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. " continues after a quick break. everybody wants super straight, super white teeth.

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to do if he's reelected. i suppose he could sky write it or plastic it on a glowing marquee. donald trump could shout it in a mega phone in the middle of time square and it wouldn't be more obvious that if he's elected to serve a second term as president, he plans out loud to drag our country into a dark new era, a place we have never been before, more closely resembling authoritarianism. at this point, you don't have to take our word for it. you can take his. in a conversation with reporters at "time" magazine, the ex-president doesn't play coy about his at hit for policies, he's proud of it. it's what he's running on. he road mapped it out right in the open. he would deploy the military to carry out mass deportations of 11 million people. he would allow red states to monitor pregnant women.

he would hold money from congress. firing u.s. attorneys who failed to carry out his orders. he would pardon some of the rioters who aed the capitol. that's just the domestic bucket. for him, it's all on the table. from that interview, quote, every election is billed as a national turning point this time that rings true. to supporters, the prospect of trump 2.0, unconstrained and backed by a disciplined movement of true believers, offers revolutionary promise to much of the rest of the nation and the world, it represent answer alarming are risk. it could bring the end of our democracy, says presidential historian douglas brinkley, and the birth of a new kind of authoritarian presidential order. joining our coverage, tim haity is back with us and with me at the table is opinion columnist frank bruni is with us. you were at the table for some

of the earliest conversations. and then we all kind of lived through the first trump term. he's operated as a president in exile. in the context of this "time" interview, it's clear that's how his supporters see him. as someone who really lived and died is and built our show around investigative journalism of the "new york times" and "washington post" and "wall street journal," is everything is out in the open. there's still great journalism at all those media organizations, but everything that he's doing that is so alarming to people who care about continuing to live in a democracy, it's stuff he's saying out loud. how do you account for that difference? >> it's really scary because i think in 2016 and afterwards a lot of us thought people didn't know who they were voting for. they made assumptions about him. we know exactly who we're getting this time, and yet he's

ahead in the polls. i think it forces us to askment some questions about our fellow americans and the country we live in and what people really care about and what people are aware of. this notion that he's skrept crept up us and snuck his way into office, if gets elected gep, we can't say we weren't warned or the buyers didn't know what they were purchasing. there's no such thing as buyers remorse in that sense. >> so what do we do? >> we continue to talk about it openly and honestly. one thing we have to stop doing is telling trump's voters how condescending do them. that doesn't work. they are drawn to him by realities in american life that are unideal that we need to address that the biden administration is trying to and needs to continue to work as hard as possible at that. we need not to see them as and talk about them as freaks, because that just drives us further apart. that's going to end up creating

the exact outcome that a lot of us who believe trump could be the end of democracy fear. >> so what does that conversation sound like? >> it sounds like acknowledge ing that there are problems at the board ep. it sounds like acknowledging that inflation has really reeked havoc on americans' lives. it sounds like spending less time seeing one another as evil and understanding everyone comes to where they are for a reason. if we tried to understand each other better, we could have much more productive and constructive conversations. i think we could have the kind of country we want to. >> do you think they are interested in that? >> i think some of them are and some aren't. but to assume they're not, if each side assumes that there's no good faith on the other side and no possibility, where does that leave us? >> it's dangerous. do you feel like trump talking ending democracy and trump talking about turning the

department of justice and the fbi and his personal police forces, do you think there's still things he can say or do that offend his supporters? >> i do. i don't think the justice department stuff is going to offend them. he's convinced that's what biden is doing. he's convinced them that he's in a manhattan courtroom because it's all a plot by the deep state and joe biden and going back to comey. but i do think wasn't of the reasons we should be cautious about extrapolating too far from polls is i think there are things he can say or do that would tip the scale here. i really do. >> tim, you led the investigation of a lot of of the things that made this issue of democracy meaningful for people. people saw what it meant when you lis theed responses from his cabinet members about the things he was doing is predicated on lies and top officials at doj. what do you think when you see him promising to run as someone

who his own advisers were the guardrail prevending him from being? >> two reactions to the comments in "time" mag sooeb. i remember when i was a u.s. attorney appointed by president obama, president obama telling me and a graup of others that you don't work for me. you for the people of your district. there's a tradition of independence that's not a democratic thing or republican thing. it's a good government thing. it's been respected by administration after administration, republicans and democrats through the years. to hear this threat that u.s. attorneys would be fired if they don't pursue particular investigations that are in the president's political interests is horrifying and against that tradition. it also brings to mind a pretty consistent pattern that we found in our select committee investigation, which is the president attempting to misuse these agencies for his personal

gain. it happened at the department of homeland security, the politicization of their intelligence gathering, his criticism of chris krebs, it happened at dod, mark milley consistently told us the president very often wanted to use the military for things outside of its traditional role. the department of justice, he attempted to install a loyalist to take action that would be without basis in law and fact. i can only imagine if he wins again, he will install people that will not be guardrail, but will pusue the personal agenda and the misuse of those agencies. again, that is horrifying. >> i keep thinking listening to the thoughtful analysis of the lessons we should have learned wit now of trump's role in all this. calling the men and women of the united states military who have been injured in the line of duty basically he describes them as freak, suckers and losers.

his debasement of the institutions that he sought to lead, his describing the generals as my generals, his refusal to see delineation between the state and himself. how do we reckon with all the things he's done to damage the institutions, but still try to bring his supporters over to a coalition so we don't turn into something aud democratic? >> i don't think it's possible to bring significant numbers of his voters over to a coalition to win. i think there are some voters in the middle who can be convinced that he is unstable. i think the point needs to be made about him is that he is a psychologically unwell individual. i keep saying he's a narcissist sociopath, and that is the absolute key to understanding him. the narcissism is reflected in the fact that he basically considers the government to be an instrument of his own revenge and his own control and something to contribute to his

greater glory, my generals, as you say. then the fact that he doesn't believe in the rule of law. he doesn't belief that rules should apply to him. he believes that power is what needs to be applied without regard to law. and the fact of the matter is the way that you deal with him is not by persuading the people on the right who support him that he is that ill. you persuade people in the middle and make them worry, but the people on the right, they like this. they want this kind of authoritarianism because he gives them the permission structure to do what they want to do, which is to basically give the entire world the finger, particularly the people that trump doesn't like who they don't like. and so the way to go after him, and i think the white house and the biden campaign are seeing that, is you need to undercut that power that he has over

supporters. they feel he's some sort of invincible person because he doesn't follow the rules. make fun of him. make fun of his for the stupid things he i says. that's what we saw from the president over the weekend. we need to see more on that. the effect would be to demoralize the viewers so they don't show up because it's just not fun anymore for them. >> the story is a window. they got a kick out of him in 2016. they did find him entertaining. i am your retribution is not an entertaining message, even for his most devoted supporters. thank you for standing outside for us. it was great to get to talk to you. thank you. tim and frank stick around. we have to sneak in a quick break. we'll be right back. have to sn break. we'll be right back. gift, made with love, with the mom in your life. choose from hundreds of stunning baskets and towers. it's the perfect way to say thank you - for

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let's take a look at the notes. you also noted that mr. rosen said to trump, quote, doj can't and won't snap its fingers and change the outcome of the election. how did the president respond to that? >> he responded very quickly and said, essentially, that's not what i'm asking you to do. what i'm asking you to do is say it was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the republican congressmen. since dhs was mentioned, the president yelled out to his secretary, get him on the phone. and she said in very short

order. he was on the phone. he was i was on the speakerphone, and the president essentially said, ken, i'm sitting here with the acting attorney general. he told me it's your job to seize machines and you're not doing your job. and he responded. >> again, i keep coming back to all that's in the public domain. this time around i want to read you another piece from this new interview that trump did with "time" magazine. trump does not dismiss the possibility of political around the election. if we don't win, it depends. it always depends on the fairens of the election, he said. when i ask what he meant when he baselessly claimed on truth social that a stolen election, quote, allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the constitution, trump responded by deny he said it. did he say it, tim?

>> he said it. he repeatedly has said it before, calling for the us is suspension of the constitution. it's frightening. whenever he says, i don't know, we have to see what happens in 2024. that's perceived by people who are zealous followers of his as permission, more than permission, invitation to commit acts of violence. that's what they perceive will be wild on january 6th. that's how they perceived his speech saying out of to fight like hell or you won't have a country anymore. this is not rhetoric. these words are taken seriously. so when the president tells "time" magazine i don't know about violence in 2024, there are a lot of people locked and loaded and ready to march because they see that as an invocation to do just that. it's irresponsible and leads to

real physical threats, not just to the capitol, but to lots and lots of people. >> when trump makes political violence and the polite of plight of the people so central to his campaign, how do you do what you're talking about? how do you bridge the divide? >> it is a problem because one thing we don't talk that much about because it's so depressing is let's say biden beats trump. trump is not going to con seed. in fact, i imagine it will be worse than that. i don't know what we do about it. the last segment, that's not everyone. the last segment when george was talking about what a narcissistic sociopath trump is, you can never convince or persuade the trump die hards, which are the majority of his

supporters. there are people in the middle who are persuadable. we don't know what they are going come november. as we have seen in the last several election cycle, it's a couple tens of thousands of votes in wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, north carolina, you cannot forget those people in the middle. they will make the difference. these are narrow margins. >> i think something you and i both know and share is current campaigns. the fact that the campaign matters is a very, very, very good thing. it means that president biden for his part, has to string together every day between now and election day that is state of the union like because that group of people that you're talking about jump toward him after the state of the union. you have to sustain that group swinging in your direction. i don't know what trump does to reach those people. that's more of the negative campaign message. i want to ask you about abortion. it's this thing that we try to focus on it intensely here, but

it is one of these things that seems to transcend the right/left polarization. you see deep red states and pockets of deep red states voting in support of access to abortion health care. i wonder how it's playing in north carolina it's been on the ballot. i know how people voted, but as an issue that transcends all this broken in our politics, it seems bigger than anything else. >> it definitely is. and i think we have seen that in the results in various state elections. the question i have about 2024, and i sometimes think we make a false assumption, we know how people have voted when the question is abortion. we really don't have a good idea of when they are considering that in the issues that they judge a presidential candidate by is it going to get down to the democrats advantage as much as it has so far. it will be an advantage, but we just don't know how much. but you are correct. i think when put on its own, a clear majority of americans want basic abortion rights. >> and women too. it's a game changer.

tim, thank you for being here. frank, it's nice to see you. the book is called "the age of grievance." a. when we come back, we'll turn to the ongoing protests on college campuses after pro palestinian demonstrators took over a building at columbia university. we'll have a live ro report after a short break. e ro report after a short break.

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your small monthly donation of just $10 could be the reason a child in crisis survives. please call or go online to hungerstopsnow.org to help save lives today. (vo) in three seconds, this couple will share a perfect moment. (woman) is that? oh wow! but we got to sell our houses! (vo) well, almost perfect. don't worry. just sell directly to opendoor. (woman) yes! (vo) close in a matter of days. when life's doors open, we'll handle the house. columbia university students have been warned to stay away from columbia university where

they study. they have been warned to stay away from campus. visitors have been barred from entering columbia university after a group of pro palestinian protesters took over one of the main buildings on columbia university campus. ham the hall. they broke the windows to gain entrance and are black indicating the doors saying they will not leaf to columbia university divests financially from israel. columbia said students occupying the building face expulsion and other protesters face us is suspension. joining us now is antonia hylton at columbia university for us. what are the prospects of any sort of deescalation? >> reporter: that's the major question right now. what would deescalation look like at this point. i can tell you we were here late into the hours last night after that 2:00 p.m. deadline that initially columbia's president said asking everyone to pack up

this encampment. you could feel something was about to happen. whether that was going to be the entrance of the nypd or the protesters were going to make a different move. very clearly when you look at hamilton hall behind me here, you can see what happened next. there are about 60 students inside that building barricaded. we're about ten minutes away from an nypd presser, where we may hear from the mayor and the police department about what their role may look like in the coming minutes or hours here. the speculation on campus is all over the place. i'm hearing from faculty members, including the dean of the journalism school, that there are still attempts at negotiations, conversations happening behind the scenes here. but then others think it's very likely that the nypd is going to put an end in the coming hours. there's that tension. you can feel it. it's pal possible here on cam us. and many of the students, even students who have been pro palestinian have supported their friends of the encampment. some are nervous about this. friends of the encampment. some are nervous about this.

something is about to happen and the school administration needs to make a decision and take some kind of action tonight. >> our kids getting money back for the fact that the semester has been ruined academically? >> reporter: some kids in families have raised that question and reached out to the administration. the major thing that is hanging in the balance now as students finish up finals and wrapping up classes and presentations is what is about to happen with him and spent. what do you do for the families, these seniors who missed out on that experience. most of them had virtual celebrations or socially distanced celebrations. i did not get the photos, those moments, the time with family. are they going to miss out on it again? graduation is set for may 15th. that may sound like it is a

long way away, but this has been going on. another two weeks, what could that look like you make it does not look like protesters are about to leave hamilton hall the rest of the campus willingly. >> we are lucky for you covering this story for us. tank you very much for spending some time to talk to us. we will be right back. right b. like doors opening wherever i go... [sound of airplane overhead] even the ground is moving for me! y'all seeing this? wild! and i don't even have to activate anything. oooooohhh... automatic sashimi! earn cash back that automatically adjusts to how you spend with the citi custom cash® card. [mind blown explosion noise] (man) excuse me, would you mind taking a picture of us? (tony) no problem! (man) thanks (tony) oh, yeah that's a problem you need verizon get the new iphone 15 pro with tons of storage. so you can take all the pics! (vo) trade-in any iphone in any condition and get iphone 15 pro - on us. only on verizon

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and genital warts. gardasil 9 doesn't protect everyone and doesn't treat cancer or hpv infection. these diseases may have many causes. your doctor may recommend screening for certain hpv-related cancers. routine cervical cancer screenings are still needed. you shouldn't get gardasil 9 if you're allergic to the vaccine, its ingredients, or yeast. tell your doctor if you have a weakened immune system, are pregnant, or plan to be. the most common side effects include injection site reactions, headache, fever, nausea, dizziness, tiredness, diarrhea, abdominal pain, and sore throat. fainting can also happen. help protect yourself against certain hpv-related cancers. talk to a doctor or pharmacist today. tomorrow, florida's new abortion man take effect. drops the state's 15 week ban

to a six-week spam. that is before the vast majority of women even know that they are pregnant so the impact on the law is a near- total ban on abortion healthcare. florida had been absorbing some patients seeking abortion healthcare from neighboring states. look at the map. women in the south will be left with even fewer options leaving many to have to travel even further for healthcare access. the band was signed into law by ron desantis. it was upheld by the florida supreme earlier this month. the court also agreed to allow an abortion referendum to be put before the voters in november. that made it hugely unimportant battleground for reproductive rights. something democrats are attempting to capitalize on with kamala harris scheduled to appear in jacksonville tomorrow is that ban takes effect. we will be covering that. keep an eye on all these developments of the break for us and we will be right back. b . i just scrape... load... and i'm done. in that dishwasher? in that dishwasher.

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you wake up in the middle of the night and you want more legal analysis, we have a reminder to you, there is more reporting on the trump trial. we have and covering it so closely. sign up for the deadline legal newsletter. scan the qr code on your screen right now and sign up. a newsletter delivered to your inbox this friday. that is a r us. thank you for letting us into your homes during this extra ordinary time. we are so grateful. the meat stars right now. >> i would like to pull a lawrence o'donnell. >> of course. i wanted to thank you for david kelly. >> i love it. >> i said thank you for coming and talking with us.