it's a beautiful... ...day to fly. wooooo! senator tammy baldwin gets tonight's last word.

the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle starts now. we are covering breaking news this evening. at columbia university here in manhattan where protest against the israel-hamas war in gaza have been underway for several days, just after 9:00 p.m. eastern, the new york city police department breached hamilton hall using a truck with a ramp. that happened almost 24 hours after protesters broke into the building and occupied it. the nypd says hamilton hall is now cleared, and so is the tent encampment on the south lawn of the campus. an nypd spokesperson spoke to nbc news shortly after the officers went in. >> the buildings were blocked by soda machines, plywood, so there were lures the nypd used. we use a distraction device that

makes a very loud bang. it's a distraction device. it makes a loud noise that allowed officers to get enough time to get through the barricades. >> columbia university formally requested law enforcement help earlier this evening. the weeks-long demonstration escalated after negotiations with school officials broke down. columbia issued a statement saying the following, quote, the decision to reach out to the nypd was in response to the actions of the protesters, not because they are championing. we have made it clear that the life of campus cannot be endlessly interrupted by protesters who violate the rules and the law. nbc news correspondent antonia hilton who has been covering the protest at columbia covers us now. what is going on there? you've been there for hours. >> reporter: it has been a pretty unbelievable scene here although right now what you are seeing behind me is the aftermath. we now know that there have

been about 100 arrests, 40 of them in hamilton hall which is the building right behind me here, that protesters have been in about 60 of them since 12:30 a.m. last night and what we know from students is that there is a mix of student organizers who have been part of different groups and movements over the last several months but also the nypd saying that there are outside agitators, anarchists, people who have no affiliation with columbia who are leading and part of this movement into hamilton hall. we saw at least two buses full of protesters leaving the scene here, and now the nypd is saying that most of this operation is over, but we are still hearing from students, students who are not part of the protest movement, by the way, that they are being barricaded by officers into their own dorm rooms. they sent us photographs. we could see officers right in front of the doors. they made it impossible for students to move around campus even if they were very clearly identified as not being part of any action or protest here. everyone on all sides of this issue from jewish students who

have long felt unsafe on the campus to pro-palestinian students who felt that their free speech has been maligned by the university to faculty members on all sides and of all different kinds of disciplines. there is immense anger right now, this feeling that it really didn't have to escalate to this point. the conversations, negotiations could've gone better. an example that keeps coming up today is brown university. brandon had an encampment and now the encampment is over. it's been packed up because the university actually had a dialogue with the students and decided they would bring questions about divestment to a board of governors vote so the university is at least going to look at the claims and concerns of the students involved. that is not to say they necessarily will take the actions the students demand but at least they are recognizing it through a democratic process and that is what people are referencing here is a possibility, an olive

branch that could've been offered. this is now going to be the second time the nypd has entered. students have watched their friends and classmates get arrested, boarded onto buses. they describe it as something that is incredibly traumatizing. everyone i talk to says they expect to wake up tomorrow still shaken by all of this, especially since we heard in a letter from the columbia president explaining that they plan to have an nypd presence all the way past graduation, so graduation is may 15th. they want officers here until may 17th. that is not making most of the students i talked to feel safer. it's actually making them feel more on edge and there is more concerned now than ever that this sending moment, what is supposed to be this happy time where people come in from all over the world to celebrate at columbia and get ready for graduation, that there is no way it's going to feel like business as usual, that it is going to feel celebratory for them and a lot of people are in pain and incredibly frustrated right now. >> but, they are in pain because the police are there but they're in pain because of the prolonged protest? which one is it?

>> it's both. for many of the students, especially in the undergraduate body, there is anger about the nypd. even students were not part of the protest movement, who are not necessarily pro- palestinian, described the cytosine nypd enter first on april 18th as traumatizing, as really difficult to see people who they see in class, who they know, who they like, they do activities with getting zip tied and facing court summonses. that's not something that made them happy and then for jewish students who have said that they felt targeted and that they have dealt with harassment, they've seen anti- semitic signs and people protesting from all over new york coming to columbia because the cameras are here and they could get attention and have their 15 seconds of fame but that is been traumatizing for them, as well. that is the one thing people here can agree on, is this feeling that the administration has failed everyone on all sides, and you hear it from the students. you hear it from faculty and staff, but at some point, the leadership here failed to figure out a way to make everyone feel heard and feel

safe, that there should've been a middle point because other schools, other communities seem to have been able to find more peaceful ways to get this done and now, here's the second time the nypd has entered. another hundred or so people are on the way downtown, going to be facing charges and court summonses. it's not making anyone happy. i have yet to meet a single person rejoicing about this or who feels fully settled were safe at the moment and that is from different interpretations but that is the one thing people really seem to be able to come in the middle on. >> just looking at it, such an upsetting scene to see on a college campus. the students, or these protesters, i'm not sure if they are all students, had they broken the law?

>> reporter: according to the nypd, the people who entered hamilton hall absolutely did. they are planning trespassing and potentially other charges, minor felonies, even, so the students who were involved with that could be facing serious legal consequences. we already know from the university that they plan to expel any students who were inside hamilton hall and part of the breach last night but we also know there are a possibility of outside actors who would also be facing serious charges but may really have nothing to do with columbia at all and that is unsettling for students on all sides here, hearing that there may be this element on campus of people they don't know or have any familiarity with her access to, that they might've been co- opting in wife what has otherwise been day after day, a fairly peaceful protest. most of what we have seen in terms of the encampment and the actions they have done there, the students who have built a library, invited faculty to come and give talks, this has been peaceful and there is this feeling even from the pro- palestinian students who were

advocating for students to still have their voices heard and to continue the protest, there is this feeling now that things have gone too far, who is really responsible for this and how did this campus get out of control. >> how much has this taken over campus life? our class is still going on? >> reporter: no. there were really just virtual options today. students are literally right now barricaded into their dorm rooms. they can't even walk to go get themselves food. student reporters trying to access the studio in which they broadcast the radio shows where they meet with each other, they are reporting that they can't even get into spaces that they typically have complete ownership over. that is how locked down things have been. there have night after night been protest on the street here. people of been in public having their voices heard on all sides but tonight, very large public protest that was behind me here was dispersed. an audio message from the nypd went out making clear that anyone who stayed near the gate

as they got ready to move in was going to be risking arrest, so what they had were hundreds of people on every side pushing up in front of businesses, residential homes and apartment buildings, screaming, shame on you. screaming at the nypd all night and refusing to leave the space. we thought around the corner, another corner of campus, some of the people who are out on the street reading part of those who were arrested this evening so those numbers at 100, that is reflective of a much larger sort of chaotic scene on campus. only about 40 of those people are confirmed to actually be protesters who were in the hall itself. >> my goodness. thank you for being there. i'm glad you were safe. i want to bring in this conversation, or a tiled seattle police chief and senator alexander, former member of obama's task force on the first century policing. both are msnbc law enforcement analyst and retired atf special agent in charge and former hostage negotiator jim cavanaugh. cedric, obviously we cannot see what was happening inside that building.

can you give us an idea of what police were doing? >> i think from all indication, we probably can do a little deductive reasoning here and make some real good predictions or assumptions that they were well-planned in terms of their approach. once they were inside, i'm quite sure they were looking for those who were involved in the overtaking of that building, a couple of dozen or so and i'm quite sure they went through each floor of that building, as well, to make sure that the building was secure, so i think we all should be very thankful for the fact that it appears to have been ended tonight without incident, but their entry into that building, and we saw it both from the ground and they went upstairs, as well, through some letter elevation, they appear to have secured that scene safely for everyone and without incident.

>> chief best, as you look at the video of columbia tonight, what stands out to you about how the nypd is responding? >> well, i feel a lot of empathy for everyone involved. this is very reminiscent of the protest post george floyd that we had in 2020. there were several people with tents and a lot of the chaos that went on there. you want to protect everyone's first amendment free-speech. i sent two daughters away to college and i can only imagine what the parents of the students who are in many ways been threatened or feeling unsafe at school, how they're feeling about their children. no officer, myself included when i was an officer, wants to take young people to jail, but there does has -- have to come

a point where there has to be effective rule of law and it cannot be chaos and pandemonium, so in some instances, while these are not pleasant for anybody, action needs to be taken. as you can see, the officers have been trying to take the students out that they have to arrest and removed from the scene. >> jim, i know i'm asking you to make a best guess, but from a police standpoint, why move in now at 9:00 at night, especially when columbia said it made the decision to make this a law enforcement matter early this morning? >> well, the nypd has together the forces. they have to make a strategic plan. you saw what they did. they brought out a phalanx of officers. they secured the area around the building in question that was seized by the protesters. they have brought in the emergency service unit and their armored vehicle, which has a hydraulic ramp, so they bypass the barricade, the first floor that the protesters had probably barricaded all the entrances down there. the intelligence officers knew

that they use the bear vehicle with a hydraulic ramp to enter the second floor, but it put a lot of officers in there to bypass those barricades and then make the arrest and work up the floor so the top floor, which was kind of the control center of the protesters, and they fought through some barricades there, they describe, and they turned over soda machines and couches and so forth and made the arrest. so, then they went out and took down the tent city that was down there in the grassy area, so a very good strategic plan, very methodical, very professional. this is how we want america's police to look. this is how we want them to act. we all support free-speech and you know, the students voices were heard. they've been on the news for a week or more but breaking into buildings, breaking windows,

threatening to burn the buildings down, you know, this is burglary, breaking and entering and threats of arson, you know, the police have to get their plan and move. there is no great time to do it. it's not a residence, per se. the people all know they're coming, so you know, at night, as you know, being a new york resident, it's kind of free traffic around that time so it can be a good time rather than clogging up all the streets, so i think the nypd gets an a+ on this and we did see it, by the way, and closing the other day, the lapd when they brought out their special unit, the lapd did at the usc campus, the same thing. an overwhelming show of officers. they peacefully surrounded, carefully, slowly, the encampment of the officers of the protesters on the quad and one by one, they arrested one at a time and walked them to the police vans. very slow, did a great job. that was lapd the other day,

and this is nypd today, so i think this is a very good example of how we have to do this. the answers of the protesters you know, that's going to go on but as long as the violence and danger is gone for a while, that is what they're paid to do so i give them a plus. >> they call them law enforcement because it is their job to enforce the law. cedric, how do they deal with his mix that supposedly there are outside agitators there, and this is a campus building meant for columbia university students? >> we have seen a number of these stunts in recent years following the death of george floyd and even there in columbia where you have these outside sources who are not affiliated with the city, with the university, and their job oftentimes solely is to continue this type of unrest in those communities. they have to be dealt with specifically and at the point of their arrest, i'm quite sure

they will be identified. some of them may have histories of doing this. some of them, there -- this may be the first time they're involved in these types of incidents but they are identified and i think what nypd has already indicated, they are certain that there have been individuals from outside the city, outside the university community there who were involved in keeping this unrest going. >> all right. thank you all so much, cedric, carmen, jim. i appreciate you helping us out tonight. we're going to stay on top of this breaking news at columbia university but we also want to get to the other big story of the day. when we return, we are breaking down donald trump's intense day in the courtroom. the key witness takes the stand is the former president gets in trouble for violating his gag order. frosted treat with a sweet kick of confidence. cirkul is the effortless energy

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academic tutoring to prom dresses. healthcare to after care. community schools can wrap so much around public schools. ...and through meaningful partnerships with families, they become centers of their communities. real solutions for kids and communities at aft.org donald trump was back in court for week two of testimony in his new york criminal trial. today, a critical witness took the stand, the former attorney for stormy daniels and karen mcdougal, who took the jury inside the catch and kill deals. the day began with the judge holding the former president in contempt of court and threatening him with actual jail time.

>> reporter: tonight, former president trump hit with a $9000 fine at his hush money trial with the judge finding multiple violations of the gag order prohibiting mr. trump from attacking witnesses, now threatening to throw him behind bars, saying jail may be a necessary punishment in the future. mr. trump's attorneys had argued it is unfair to hold him accountable for reposting criticism others have voiced, and that certain witnesses like michael: frequently attacked mr. trump. the presumptive republican nominee later deleting the nine post about: and stormy daniels that landed him in hot water. >> the republican candidate for president of united states. there is no crime.

>> reporter: the former president joined in court today by son, eric, the first family member to attend, the prosecution calling keith davidson, the lawyer who represented daniels and karen mcdougal, two women who say they had relations with mr. trump which he has denied. trump is charged with the low level felony, falsifying business records through: who made the payments. davidson testifying that after the release of the damaging access hollywood tape, interest in what daniels had to say reached a crescendo and davidson only testified about dealings with:, not offering evidence of trump's knowledge of the plans. >> court resumes on thursday and there will be another hearing on trump's alleged gag order violations. with that, let's bring in susan glasser, conservative lawyer john conway, who was in the courtroom today. he is also a contributing writer at the atlantic. catherine christian, former assistant district attorney. she is now an msnbc legal

analyst and neil is here, department of justice veteran and former acting solicitor general. george, you were our eyes and ears in the courtroom today. >> there was not much that was said about the gag order. it was a written opinion and we did not actually have the judge read it in court other than to say, i rolled nine out of 10 for the prosecution. >> why, he didn't want to waste time? >> you wanted to get straight to the trial and i think a lot of the stuff we just heard about what was in the opinion, we did not actually here in open court but that obviously was very significant because he is going to have more to say on this next week when the second round or third round of gag order violations is going to be discussed and i think that it is significant that he mentioned the possibility of jail. he's not going to impose it for this next series of events because it occurred before he issued this opinion but i think he is probably, if i had to guess, he's probably going to

reiterate next week. he probably is going to rule more quickly next week because these violations were a piece of the nine or 10 that he upheld. is probably going to say that's it. the next time, at least i would do that, the next time you are running the risk of -- this is it. you violated this 13 times or whatever the number is going to be, and you know, he doesn't have to throw the guy in the clink for the entire duration of the trial. he can just say okay, you're going to go in for a couple of hours and see how you like it and if you do it again you will go in for four or five hours and so on and so forth and you know, donald trump would be unwise to test that out. i mean, he's talking about all of his supporters. well, even today after he was complaining about how the supporters were able to get in, and there's nothing obstructing these people from getting in -- there were like five people there.

i think he grossly overstates his support against this court. >> what you think about where this gag order is going? could donald trump find himself in a time-out? >> i do sit -- think so. today's decision really underscores just how accustomed we are to donald trump's involvement in criminal proceedings. the really enormous thing happened today, former president of the united states was held in contempt of court and a felony criminal trial and 10 years ago that would've been an unthinkable statement in here, it's just like another tuesday. i think the judge was actually quite protective of trump. i think the judge should have gone further and imposed a criminal sentence and then suspended it so that he wouldn't have to serve it and can warn trump and say look, this is the consequence of what you will do, of what you are doing and jail is on the table next time. the warning today is something

somewhat similar to that but my fear is donald trump is just going to do it again. he seems totally consumed by his need to attack witnesses and attacked the prosecutor and you know, indeed, if trump didn't stay up every night tweeting about the witnesses and prosecutors maybe he would actually be able to stay awake during his trial. >> susan, give us a history lesson because this is not just a payoff to cover up an extramarital affair. the infamous access hollywood tape emerged one month before the 2016 election. can you remind us why this has become so relevant again in this trial? >> that's right. you make a good point. we thought when the access hollywood tape appeared right before the election, and there was dramatic testimony about

this in the courtroom today, that this was going to be the end of donald trump's presidential campaign, and that, in fact, is what the witness testified. there are some amazing text messages from 2016 in which he said basically donald trump is screwed. that is not the word he used, but that this game is over. but, it was not over so the legal theory of the case now being presented in this manhattan courtroom is that in fact, it was the effort to cover up the stories from emerging to the voters in 2016 that was the theory of the case, that was why donald trump and michael cohen were acting to buy stormy daniels. that is at the heart of the case being presented right now but these allegations about donald trump and not just stormy daniels but another woman, karen mcdougal, goes all the way back to 2011 and that is the evidence they are hearing in the courtroom right now. >> and the timeline matters because the jury saw this video of trump himself denying allegations from women who publicly accused him of sexual assault after the access hollywood tape emerged. watch this. >> there trying to poison the

mind of the american voter. every woman lied when they came forward to hurt my campaign. >> the 5% of the people think it is true and maybe 10% think we don't win. >> how effective do you think that was? >> very effective for the prosecution, because first of all, the executive assistant said that trump had missed mcdougall's and ms. mcdaniels contact information and she even said she saw ms. mcdaniels in the waiting area so his denial of knowing other of them is false. if he takes the stand, and he won't, but let's say he did, this would be a way to attack his credibility. his lawyers can say in summation that he's never met this women. here he is on tape basically testifying to the jury but in a way that the prosecution wants the jury to see them.

>> reportedly donald trump is not happy with his lawyer, todd blanche. he is not following trumps instruction and he wants his own way:. he wants a hardcharging lawyer, so hardcharging that he was eventually disbarred. shouldn't this be a moment where trump says holy cow, i'm a criminal defendant. better actually listen to a lawyer? >> it's astonishing. he manages to create chaos wherever he goes. he creates chaos among his legal teams whenever he has a new legal team. i think it would be a big mistake for him to get rid of blanche. blanche did not exactly cover himself with glory in the argument about the gag order but it wasn't blanche's fault. basically blanche was stuck out there defending the indefensible, thanks to donald trump.

it is donald trump's fault. today blanche is been put in this impossible position. he spent a lot of time cross- examining the bank witness from first republic and it was really quite pointless. there was just a lot of rehash of the direct because i think -- i'm speculating that the reason why there was this lengthy, pointless cross examination was to make donald trump happy but the fact of the matter is, the question i would've asked would've been like three questions. you never talked with donald trump, you don't know what he told michael cohen to do you have no basis to conclude that donald trump told michael cohen to lie to you and to the bank about what these companies and payments were for. >> neil, what do you think? >> i agree with george. first of all, i think everyone including donald trump should have access to a great lawyer. it makes the system better and i think it's very important for someone like trump to have a

lawyer who is independent enough to tell his client when he is over the line as he has been, for example, violating the gag order. i don't know, but he has a really almost impossible task. donald trump is any lawyer's client from hell. he has a lot of strong opinions. he has a lot of wrong opinions and neither of those attributes lend themselves to a hopeful legal defense which is why you see sooner or later, almost every lawyer that is work for donald trump seems to be a, under indictment like eastman or jeffrey clark or rudy giuliani, or they quit. just today, another law firm that had represented trump for a long time sought to withdraw from the case. the list goes on and on. >> catherine, i have to ask about something else. harvey weinstein is actually going to be in court tomorrow in new york. his new york rape conviction

was overturned. >> well, he was not declared in said -- innocent. he's going to get a new trial. what the judge said was that the judge in the first trial made mistakes. you're only allowed to impeach someone's credibility on cross- examination. the trial judge just allowed basically everything the prosecutor wanted to add. >> so, can he go free until this new trial? >> no.'s lawyers will probably request that bail be set. i think that whoever the judges will not set bail, so he's going to stay there and remember, he was convicted in california, too. so yes, there's going to be a do over but he's not going anywhere. >> susan, i owe you an apology. i'm out of time. please come back soon but

george, did trump see you in the courtroom today? you guys know each other. >> he did. >> and? >> no, it was like the 11:00 break and he was walking down the center aisle to go out from break and i happen to have a seat right on the aisle on the right-hand side, and i'm just sitting there and he's walking toward me and then he looks and he sees me and gives me this kind of like stink eye, and i kind of just thought hey. i didn't wave. i thought about doing the caitlin clark thing. that would've been a little too much. >> no words were exchanged. >> no. i just sort of gave him a little green and he walked off and he didn't say anything and i didn't say anything. we're both very well behaved people. >> okay, that's not true. >> susan, i'm sorry we didn't have more time. always good to have you here. when we come back, we are going to head back to columbia's campus where police have entered hamilton hall and taken protesters into custody.

the latest on this breaking story when the 11th hour continues. ory when the 11th hor continues.

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♪ ♪ [sfx] water splashing. ♪ ♪ [sfx] ambient / laughing. ♪ ♪ we are following breaking news this evening and the new york police department says about 100 people have been arrested at columbia university after demonstrators broke into a campus building overnight. police say the tent encampment on the university south one has also been cleared. we are back with antonia

outside the campus. what is the scene there right now and help us understand the significance of hamilton hall. why did demonstrators choose to make their way into that building? >> reporter: well, right now it is eerily quiet and you're looking at the aftermath. just a couple dozen officers hanging out outside. the massive crane that had been used by officers to enter through a window is gone now. we watched buses of protesters getting carded downtown who are certainly facing some charges. they are gone now. but, we are hearing from people that they are still barricaded in their dorm rooms. student journalists are barricaded in their newsrooms, unable to travel or move freely within the campus so that feeling of tension and in some cases, fear, is still very much present. you know, this is a very symbolic moment and this is a very symbolic space because of the parallels between what is happening right now and 1968. hamilton hall is a critically

important space here at columbia not just because classes are held here. administrators and faculty have their offices in this space and students have come to know and love this building but also because it has been the focal point of protests for us during the vietnam war then again in the 80s and in the 90s. students have used it much in the same way we saw the protesters is it last night. they entered, they barricaded themselves back in the 1960s then after several days, the nypd moved in and in some cases, there was a similar scene playing out. in their case, it was hundreds of people arrested, and at one point, you know, even ransacked the dean's office and you know, there are these kind of immediate, obvious physical parallels here but i think also it's a strategic one for the people who are behind this movement here at columbia, they want you to compare what is happening right now, the

questions, the concerns, the sadness that many americans feel about the current conflict unfolding in israel and gaza. they want you to drop paralyzed -- and draw parallels to 1968 on the moral parallels students were raising back then so what better way than to use this building that is already seen as the space. when you enroll at columbia, you are taught about the protest that happened in this hall. often, people celebrate those movements. even if you look at the coverage of 1968. the university looks back on that very fondly and so often what protesters have been telling their friends and fellow classmates in the encampment is that in the long run, we will be looked at as the good guys. we may be criticized for what

we have done here, but ultimately, this is a step away to bring attention and talk about something happening on a global stage, and so you know, we will see how people feel when the morning comes now, stephanie, but the weight of the global pressure and nationalize on columbia is certainly present right now. >> antonia, thank you for joining. i appreciate it. when we return, project 2025 is laid out what they want in a second trump term. but now, we are hearing straight from his mouth in a very revealing interview with time magazine. the editor in chief joins us next when the 11th hour continues. the 11th hour continues. once-daily jardiance ♪ ♪ at each day's start! ♪ ♪ as time went on it was easy to see ♪ ♪ i'm lowering my a1c! ♪ jardiance works twenty-four seven in your body to flush out some sugar. and for adults with type 2 diabetes and known heart disease, jardiance can lower the risk of cardiovascular death, too. serious side effects may include ketoacidosis

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there has been a lot of speculation about what a second trump term could look like, but in a new sprawling interview with time magazine, the former guy said exactly what he wants to do if he wins that includes allowing red states to prosecute women who violate abortion bans, firing any u.s. attorney who refuses to carry out his orders to prosecute someone, and the mass deportation program led by the military both at the border and inside the u.s. do these things sound familiar? it could be because they line up with the priorities of project 2025, the far right program stacked with trump allies who have written 100 --

900 page playbook for a second term. quote, prioritizing border security and immigration enforcement including detention and deportation is critical if we are to regain control of the border, repair the historic damage done by the biden administration. for more on this i want to welcome time magazine editor-in- chief sam jacobs. sam, what stood out to me most -- trump says he was too nice when he was president. he didn't get done what he wanted to do, so how should we think of how he will conduct himself if he were to become president again? >> thank you, stephanie. >> i'm going to say not a lot of people would call those four years mr. nice guy time. >> i think that is the important thing about the moment we are experiencing right now. we keep looking backward and keep looking at the present so we are looking at what happened over those four years in this daily conversation about the trial.

all of that is standing in the way of getting a clear vision of what the president -- former presidents -- says he would do if he were our next president. >> as and that maybe why he would want to sit down and give you 90 minutes two days before his trial starts? why? because here you and i are talking about the vision donald trump will have instead of us talking about donald trump, criminal defendant facing 80+ charges. >> that is the man is going to be on the ballot so while we can speculate about what his motivation is, our role at time is to be of service to our readers, and service to our viewers, and say here is what the ex-president himself says is going to happen. >> former president. he remains the president just as we would say former president obama or president -- >> tell trump seems like such a familiar figure because he is in our face every day and it

can seem like he doesn't change but what i think is really important is for us to understand how the context around him has completely changed in the decade he has been in our public consciousness day after day after day, so you can look at the courts. you look at congress. you look at people who are surrounding his administration. you know, he could have a team of rivals coming in when he entered the white house in 2016 but he had people who came from completely different regions of the republican party. look today at the people who would be coming with him, it's a completely different set of people and ideas and when you talk about project 2025, what we see is an intellectual and legal framework that has been developed around the former president building an entire conception of what it would take for him to get done what he wants to get done. that is completely different. >> so, i love that you are making this point because we talk about project 2025 ever met

-- every night here. it's not an official trump document and has not been endorsed by him but based on everything he said in this interview does it seem like his goals are directly aligned with what is says in those 900 pages, which are as far right and christian nationalist as it gets? >> i would say donald trump's goals are aligned with donald trump and there are no people situated, the stephen miller's of the world and others, has been a long time figuring out, how can we best enact that vision? that is very different than the environment we saw while he was in the white house. >> yes, but donald chun trump -- donald trump changes based on who is supporting him. donald trump was once a democrat. >> and the ability for donald trump to get done changes based on the people around him. >> he talked about firing u.s. attorneys who won't -- excuse

me. he talked about firing u.s. attorneys who are unwilling to prosecute people that he wants to see prosecuted. what will his justice department overhaul look like? i think people hear something like that in passing but that would drastically change what our three separate but equal branches of government look like and that is just one little example. >> that is one little piece of it. you look at the justice department and things like enforcement of impoundment, these are things maybe just interesting to people sitting inside the beltway but they could have a huge impact on the policies and politics of our government, and donald trump has spent a long time, and the people around him, trying to figure out if i want to do this, how do i do it? the doj is just one example of what we call in the article the rise of what would be an imperial presidency. his theory of the presidency and the people around him and what they want to do with it is different from what we have seen since nixon and what they think they can do is completely rewrite the rules of how the president works. for supporters, this is wonderful and for those who are not going to vote for him it is

very important to understand what he wants to get done and understand that he now has an ability to put this vision and the place that he has not had before. >> this is an extraordinary piece that you all put together. this afternoon, trumps team seemed to be pushing out some of the content as well as the biden campaign. >> i think this interview is a rorschach test that shows where everyone is along the spectrum and it gives everyone an opportunity. hillary clinton shared this, as did the trunk pack campaign. look at this interview and see what it tells you about what donald trump would do as president. >> it is a snapshot of our country. take the same piece of information and some people see it one way and some people said another. an amazing pace. thank you so much for joining me tonight. i really appreciate it. more of the 11th hour when we return. return. provides 2 shades whiter teeth and 24/7 sensitivity protection. i think it's a great product. it's going to help a lot of patients.

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an update to that breaking news on columbia university's campus, demonstrators broke in and barricaded themselves last night. pictures justin show shattered glass and furniture tossed throughout the building tonight . new york city police cleared out the building and arrested about 100 demonstrators on campus. they also cleared the tent encampment which was on the south lawn. we are going to continue our coverage tomorrow. it has been a long night, and on that note, i wish you a good night. from all of our