hello, it is 10:00 eastern. i'm ana cabrera reports from new york. let's get right to the breaking news this morning and what is happening in madison, wisconsin,

right now. here you can see police there with their riot gear on campus handling and confronting protesters there who have been in an encampment. these are the pro-palestinian protests we've seen breaking out across the country. also with us retired seattle police chief and msnbc law enforcement analyst, carmen best. tim, thank you for taking a moment to join us. walk us through what you're seeing and what's happening there. >> well, ana, it's absolute chaos here on campus, if i'm honest with you here at wb madison. i'll step out of the way. law enforcement officials are in the distance. they have their riot shields out, and they've been advancing on protesters all morning long. they are clearing out an encampment that's been here

since monday morning at around 9:00 a.m. that encampment consisted of about two dozen or so tents, but most of those tents are now gone and law enforcement are going tent by tent taking them down. i want to walk you over here as well to where the protesters are. you can see many of them locked arm in arm right here on campus in front of the memorial library. they've been here for two days as the pushing here is happening between protesters and law enforcement. law enforcement have made several advancements here this morning to clear out these tents. they've been shoulder to shoulder with their riot shields. i don't know how many exactly law enforcement officials are here, but i would say a good 50 or so, and there are hundreds of protesters out here. they've been out here camping out for two nights, and as you can see, things are starting to heat up a little bit as protesters start making their way toward law enforcement here. if we could get a little closer, the tents here are gone, but the

protesters are remaining as they continue to have their voices heard. this is a pro-palestinian protest that has been taking place on the university of wisconsin's campus since monday morning, and it seems as though law enforcement are falling back a little bit here as the protesters keep pushing forward. we are behind the protesters looking toward where the law enforcement have set up their kind of -- as you just heard there, an eruption of applause and cheers. it appears as though law enforcement are holding back right now moving out of the area. this is a big development here as law enforcement, state patrol, wisconsin state patrol, madison police and uw wisconsin police here are now falling back, it appears, away from where this encampment was set up for the past two days as we come into the sunshine. what really is a beautiful day

here in madison, but an ugly situation here on campus. law enforcement are leaving the area as we speak right now. they are moving away from campus. i know several arrests have been made this morning. but as you can see, in the distance, sheriff's office, deputy, police officers, the state patrol, they have retreated here. they have moved out of the way as protesters seem to be claiming victory right here as they came face to face. this all began at about 9:00 this morning. >> i know there's a big delay. stay with us, as long as you can, and if you need to go because of the situation and for safety reasons, you let us know, but as we look at these pictures, it does seem like there's been a little bit of a deescalation at this moment. you talked about these police officers coming in and clearing the tents that had been set up there on the university of madison -- university of wisconsin in madison, and we see this video from moments ago

where they have their riot gear, they have shields out when they came on to campus. you mentioned there were arrests. this is some video from our affiliate that's live on air right now, your affiliate there, tim, wmtv. so the police are leaving. can you just give us a better sense of where this is taking place on campus? and you mentioned hundreds of protesters. do we know, are they all students and what their goal is here? >> sure. yeah, there's students, community members from madison that have been participating in this protest for the past two days. the uw madison campus is situated in downtown madison. it's in the heart of madison. it's on an isthmus. we're not far from the capitol building here. the lake right there, a popular spot for students to hang out. this is a very well-traveled

area of campus. students come through here every day to walk to class and to go to their apartments here in the surrounding area. and as we mentioned, yes, arrests have been made here this morning, but mostly students are the ones who have been protesting, i'd say over the past two days have been out here. i have spoken with faculty members, staff here at uw who are participating in this protest as well as people who live in the surrounding area who want to be a part of this protest here. it's been a very chaotic and busy morning. it looks like we've got something else going on down here, as protesters run to the squawk, the street here, blind me. we'll take a closer look. as soon as there's someone being arrested, protesters seem to respond to the situation with their chants and cell phones as police try to get a handle still on the situation. but again, a big move from police as they cross the street hear and move towards the memorial union on campus as some protesters continue to follow them, not quite sure where they're going or what's going on, but it looks like some

people are running as well in the distance. but things have definitely quieted down in the area of where this protest was situated for the past couple of days. >> tim elliott, thank you so much for your reporting. please do keep us posted and stand by. we're going to continue to watch these images again at the university of wisconsin madison where police moved in. they cleared out some tents. the encampment that tim tells us had been set up since monday, and it appears that police are now retreating, but protesters are sort of following where police are headed, so unclear exactly where this particular protest and situation is headed right now. we'll keep an eye on that. meantime, i want to turn to carmen best, our law enforcement analyst who's joining us now. what do you make of the police involvement in these protest situations? you know, not just there in wisconsin. we've seen it overnight in ucla, on the campus there in

california. we have the situation here in new york at columbia university where police were called in, the nypd went in to hamilton hall to take back that building from protesters who had gone in there, barricaded themselves. what is the police approach here? how should it look? and especially when there's so many situations breaking out across the country. >> yeah, ana, good morning. and thank you for having me. as these situations break out, there's so many stakeholders that have to be addressed here. we have the protesters. we have faculty, some of them involved in the protests. we have the administration trying to keep control of the campuses in many ways. we have the parents, some students who feel like they're unsafe on campus. i sent my own kids to college and i know what that feels like to have to worry about their safety and what's happening there. so a lot of folks that are engaged and involved in this.

there's a heavy balance there between people's first amendment right to free speech, they have the right to assemble and protest, to, you know, having , you know, a situation where they're trespassing and occupying. they're allowing free speech to continue but also taking care of some of the other situations. it looks like here at least in madison, their objective was to move the tents. once the tents are removed, you know, why would the police need to be there any longer if it's a place where they're allowed to demonstrate and protest and express their free speech rights so long as there's no violent acts or things like that occurring. that's really the situation across the country. >> we're looking at these images again, live pictures from madison, wisconsin. it appears people are in a bit of a cleanup mode and unclear what the protesters' plan is now that those tents have been taken down.

carmen, please stay with us. i want to bring in msnbc contributor, eddie glaud. eddie, had you see what's happening in madison, when you learn about the situations overnight at ucla and here in new york at columbia university, what's your gut reaction? >>. >> well, ana, it's great to see you. my gut reaction is heartbreak in some ways to mix my metaphors. once you invite the police onto campus there is by definition an escalation. there is the possibility of physical harm directed at the students, and last night when i saw images of new york police officers with their guns drawn entering one of the rooms in hamilton hall, my heart broke as an educator, our principal responsibility is to take care of our students, is to educate them, give them the equipment, the resources not only to be critical thinkers but also to be informed citizens, to understand their obligations to each other

and to the country. and so it's heartbreaking on so many levels. >> what do you see, though, as the line there, eddie, when universities are saying some of these protests have prevented other students from being able to participate in their class work and in their finals in graduation events, students who, you know, don't feel safe on campus because of sort of some of the threatening things they're seeing or hearing from some of these protesters, some are considered anti-semitic, that sort of thing. >> ana, i've been a part of higher education for over 30 years, and i've seen protests over those 30 years that have ranged in intensity. i've seen students of color who have experienced all sorts of horrific things, and i've seen communities shudder at -- you know, in some ways shaken by protests. but it's always in the interests

of the administration to give room for students to express their political views, that allows for a wide range of dispute and dialogue. but when you invite police to a campus, remember, police are -- they have the legitimate use of deadly force. when you invite police onto a campus, you escalate the tensions immediately, and i think it's important for administrators to understand their responsibility. you have to engage in dialogue. you have to engage in debate. these students feel that this is the moral issue for their generation. i think as an educator, we have to give them space to think through that, and the encampments were nonviolent and once you -- i should say this quickly, once they take over a building, the students have made a decision to put themselves into a disciplinary process. many will face suspension. some will face expulsion. some will face the withholding of their degrees. they understand the consequences

within the context of the university. but the moment you invite the police on campus given our history, really nervous and scared. >> what do you think about this, carmen, the fact that police were invited on campus and it being a college s setting? >> in many points he's making, i agree, we want our academic constitutions and higher learning to allow students to express their concerns, engage in political dialogue and be able to protest. administrators are concerned about the things you mentioned, about assaults that have been reported, intimidated, threatening behavior, other students not feeling safe. they have to within themselves figure out where that line is. amongst administrators there's disagreement about where that

line needs to be drawn. i think there's an inherent responsibility to all of the students who are at those campuses. >> i think that's an important point you make. not all of these protests are turning violent. not all of them are calling in police to have to be, you know, part of any kind of solution or confrontation. we know in the case of what happened at ucla overnight, there were the pro-palestinian protesters and then counterprotesters who came in, and so then there became this violence between these two groups in which police had to respond to that. you can't just stay hands off and let people do what they will because they're on a college campus. i know, eddie, that's not what you're suggesting. i am curious as to how you see these protests through a broader lens. some have compared these college campus demonstrations to

protests during the vietnam war. do you think that's an accurate comparison? >> you want to reach for the familiar in order to understand the current moment, and i get that. i want us to -- i want us to view these protests within the context of our can you not -- current moment, the current geopolitical context. we're in a period where the politics are heightened, that the conflicts within the country where it feels as if we're at each other's throats, these young people have concluded, many of them that america in so many ways is broken and they've come of age in so many ways, not only in terms of how we might describe them as the catastrophic generation. they've come of age in the midst of school shootings, in the mist of economic collapse, in the midst of a pandemic, over a million folks are dead. these folks are arguing for a better america, a better world, and then they're witnessing the horror of gaza. even with the horror of october 7th, they're witnessing the

horror of the consequences. let's be clear really quickly, the public and the congress are bad faith actors in this debate, and they're driving this and administrators should understand when they respond to them, these bad faith ctors will eventually turn only them. we see this with the president of columbia. they urged her to act in a certain way. she acted and they still called for her resignation. we need to understand our charge as educators and live that charge in relate to the political climate of our current moment. >> what should an educator be doing in this situation? and why do you think the leaders of columbia university have fallen short? >> well, as faculty members, particularly at columbia, they have made and issued a statement, ana, saying that the administration has circumvented faculty governance in relation to their response by inviting the new york police department

onto campus. that's the first thing. the second thing, our primary concern are our students. we want to make sure they're safe, all of our students are safe. we want to make sure they have the right to engage of their expression of political views. even if some find hose views noxious, we've been having that debate. i've been having that debate as a person of color on campus. what does it mean to create the room for the students to push back on the kind of society we live in? and particularly given the situation that when you argue for, right, the value of innocent life, you claim that the u.s. is complicit in had mass murder, right, these students understand the moral underpinnings of their arguments even as they're recognizing the horror of october 7th and then they get labeled as anti-semitic, they get labeled as pro-hamas and the tension rises. as an educator i want to protect students at all costs, period.

that's my job. i want to make sure they grow up into the kinds of people that can be healthy, functioning, morally committed citizens. that's my job, and to see police on campuses, it breaks my heart. i hope that makes sense. >> we're going to keep an eye on these nationwide protests. we'll have an update coming up from ucla where there were those clashes overnight that we mentioned, also at columbia university, the situation there today following police going into hamilton hall. we're live at both schools. plus, could we see a january 6th repeat? what donald trump is saying about election-related violence in a new lengthy interview. i'll talk to the reporter who sat down with him. also, from the trial to the trail, the former president is making his first campaign trip since the start of this trial. what happens if he violates his gag order again? >>

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. we're back with more on the breaking news, growing clashes at college campuses across the country. we just brought you those images of police and protesters facing off at the university of wisconsin at madison. meanwhile, overnight, the l.a.p.d. responding to the ucla campus after clashes and violence, fights breaking out, fireworks set off, all this just hours after the nypd moved onto the campus of columbia university clearing out that occupied building and a protest encampment arresting hundreds. nbc's steve patterson is on the ucla campus. this has been a very dynamic and tense situation for hours now. looks like things have calmed down. karen bass cut short her d.c. trip in light of the situation there on ucla's campus.

what's happening now? >> reporter: dynamic and violent. i spoke to a student who described this scene as pure chaos last night. you can see sort of the remnants of the aftermath. we can show you that encampment. it's right behind us. the border is here, sort of the barrier, the metal barrier in between another metal barrier in between a wooden barrier serving as a dmz in between the rest of campus ask that encampment. this is where it all went down. they say these counter protesters came in sometime between 10:45 and 11:00. and they just started ripping and tearing this barrier down, pushing and pulling, ripping off pieces of it, parts of what you're seeing behind me were used as weapons in an ongoing fight that lasted as far as one student told me lasted for hours until police were able to divide it up. there were reports that pepper spray was deployed, that tasers were used, that metal pipes were

used, and that certainly this was a very, very violent scuffle, maybe the most violent we've seen on campus so far. police were called in, the mayor getting involved after the university decried the outburst as abhorrence, as something that needed to be squashed immediately. police came in according to the students i spoke to and the protesters on scene here sometimes hours after, maybe around 2:00 or so before they were able to separate and divide the counter protesters from the protesters and what had been, again, a violent scuffle for at that point hours. there was some criticism that the police presence while getting here didn't do enough to quickly divide what was going on, which led to more violence throughout the night. finally, though, they were separated. as you can see now, it is much more peaceful. i can hear the birds chirping at this point. that wasn't the case just a few hours ago here. >> so steve, where are we now?

are police gone? are protesters gone? what's happening as far as where this protest movement is going? >> reporter: follow me. you're going to see some news people because i'm sort of doing this on the fly, but you can see sort of the sheriff's presence. over here you can also see if you went way back there's the l.a.p.d. in the corner there beyond this media line. they are here. i think they want to be known they are here, and they are keeping a presence, i think, which is much larger than we had seen previously just a few hours ago. there were maybe scattered security forces here not so long ago. we'll flip back around. obviously now that this has happened, i think they want to be more known that the police presence is going to be here. it's going to be something they're holding a scene on so they can make absolutely sure that something as violent as last night doesn't happen again. >> it looks like a mess behind

you clearly. let's check in with rehema here in new york. what's the scene in columbia after police went into hamilton hall. they cleared out the building, they broke out the protest encampment and now what? >> what a difference a day -- >> there is a movement to radicalize young people, and i'm not going to wait until it's done and all of a sudden acknowledge the existence of it. this is a global problem that young people are being influenced by those who are professionals at radicalizing our children and i'm not going to allow that to happen as the mayor of the city of new york. >> reporter: that was a little bit earlier than i hoped that we would play that soundbite from the mayor as i was telling you about the fact that it calm here at columbia university. there's a peaceful entrance and exit from campus. the tents set up on campus ground, they are gone. all of this happened overnight.

as i was listening to steve talking about the violent clashes they had out there in california, one of the things the mayor said an hour or so ago, he said there were no injuries and no violent clashes and that was according to independent analysis. did the police come in force? yes, they did, but he said it was done in an orderly way. he also said they were called in, ana, at the request of the university. the university said they did this as a result of the breakdown in talks they were having with students, and once the students entered the hall behind me, which is hamilton hall, they say they broke into that hall, they caused some vandalism, and it could no longer be tolerated. that's why they had the police come in and they also said that they felt that there were outside agitators who were making this situation that was challenging all the more difficult to handle. so it reached a point where they couldn't tolerate it anymore, and that's why they called in the nypd. in terms of arrests, the police say there was something like 300

arrests. we're told that there were about 40 to 50 people who were arrested in out of hamilton hall, people are being charged with trespass, criminal mischief as well as burglary. will police continue to be on this campus? authorities say, yes, they will be with a much reduced presence. campus security will be out in pors force as well. they want them here so they can have a commencement on may 15th. they say the police will remain here. >> thank you very much rehema ellis, steve patterson for your reporting. let's stay close throughout this hour, and we're continuing to monitor these protests from coast to coast from new york to wisconsin to california, can also note there were 32 people arrested at cal poly humboldt overnight as the university is working to clear that encampment.

up next here on "ana cabrera reports," a new era in the south, a six-week abortion ban is now in effect in florida, meaning it is now close to impossible to get an abortion anywhere in the southeast. what it means for women who live there. ans for women who live there. my life is full of questions... mom, is yellow a light or a dark? how do i clean an aioli stain? thankfully, tide's the answer to almost all of them. why do we even buy napkins? use tide. can cold water clean white socks? it can with tide. do i need to pretreat guacamole? not with tide. this is chocolate, right? -just use... -tide...yeah.

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...and through meaningful partnerships with families, they become centers of their communities. real solutions for kids and communities at aft.org this morning one of the strictest abortion bans in the country is now in effect in florida. the six-week ban prohibits abortion at a time before most women even know they're pregnant. it effectively outlaws abortion across the southeast. nbc news correspondent marissa parra is in jacksonville, florida, with more for us. marissa. >> reporter: hey, ann, clinics have been preparing working around the clock over the last month. there's a clinic down the road, they told me they saw double the normal amount of patients yesterday including a third of them from out of state. as we have been reporting this has impacts far beyond the state

of florida and really across the region. this morning an abortion ban with ripples far beyond the sunshine state. >> our body, our choice! >> reporter: after the supreme court overturned roe versus wade the states began to form their own rules. many women from surrounding states in the south, which have some of the strictest abortion laws in the country travel to florida for abortion care. starting today the closest drivable options for abortion care are north carolina and virginia. florida clinics like a woman's world in force pierce have been working overtime trying to squeeze in every patient over six weeks pregnant before it became a felony to do so. >> last week the phones were crazy. we couldn't answer the phones fast enough. >> reporter: supporters of the ban point out the law has exceptions for rape, incest, fetal abnormalities and the life of the mother. state rep, mike beltran says abortion tourism from other states are over.

>> abortion is not health care. there are many countries in the world where abortion is illegal. >> reporter: it's part of the nationwide debate into the issue. in ar an interview with time magazine, former president trump was asked -- i think they might do that the gop candidate responded, you'll have to speak to the individual states. president biden responding overnight. >> there seems to be no limit to how invasive trump would let the tate be. this should be a decision between a woman and her doctor and the government should get out of people's lives. >> reporter: even though today starts the six-week ban, this could all change come november. amendment 4 is on the ballot. it would protect abortion rights until 24 weeks replacing the current six-week ban. the florida voters will have the final say. >> marissa parra, thank you so much. joining us now is president of reproductive freedom for all, mini tim ra you. thank you so much for being here, what are you hearing from

abortion providers there in florida as this goes into effect? >> a lot of concern and stress with our patients, you know, as you just showed in the map, the closest abortion clinic is 4 hours away in charlotte, north carolina. so, look, florida was an important hub. you've got the map up right now. look at all the red. we know ha it is nearly impossible for folks in the deep south from texas to florida to have access to care. florida has been such an important hub. it's really disturbing to hear the legislator refer to this as abortion tourism. it's more like life saving emergency care. what we're hearing from folks is six weeks, again, you said it before most people mow they're pregnant. may as well be a total abortion ban. this can end in november when floridians go to the polls to rote yes on 4. that is the ballot measure that would allow abortion access to be legal again in florida, and frankly, we have a high takes

takes presidential and u.s. senate that are going to be pivotal that could allow us to restore abortion access. >> you talk about the ripple effect since roe v. wade was overturned and people in the southeast are left with very few options if you are a woman needing reproductive care that would require abortion care. will is a new interrue with the former president donald trump, in which he talks about these abortion bans saying they should be left to the states including monitoring women's pregnancies, he says, quote, i think they might do that. when asked if he would be comfortable with states prosecuting women for having abortions beyond the points that the laws permit, he says, quote, it's irrelevant where i'm comfortable or not. it's totally irrelevant because the states are going to make those decisions. that was in this really lengthy

interview he did with time magazine. what's your reaction to that? >> it's chilling. it just goes to show everything folks in our movement have been saying about what would happen with a trump presidency is absolutely true. you know, in the last few weeks, we have seen the trump campaign and the candidate himself try to really shift their messaging on abortion because they know it's a losing issue for them. in arizona calling for a repeal. this "time" interview comes out and it makes it abundantly clear that trump has always been aligned with the most extreme elements of the republican party. the folks who are behind this project 2025 effort to try to outlaw abortion beyond the supreme court without congress by invoking, you know, old laws like the come stock act, outlawing medication abortion. trump has been on the record

about prosecuting patients and providers. we have a very clear contrast come november. it's really important that we not let trump hide behind these . if it's up to the states we're going to see things like texas and florida. it's important to note only one candidate is talking about restoring and codifying roe and that is joe biden and kamala harris. >> thank you very much for offering your thoughts on this important issue today. appreciate it. we're tracking new developments on capitol hill this hour and the threat to mike johnson's speakership. in just the last hour, georgia congresswoman marjorie taylor greene spoke with reporters about her grievances with johnson. she said she would try to force a vote to oust johnson next week. this announcement just after house democratic leaders said they would help save johnson's job. let's get the latest from julie

tsirkin joining us from capitol hill. >> reporter: it was at that press conference, it was nearly 40 minutes. congresswoman greene flanked by congressman massie, why not just do this today. greene said it's because she wants to give the republican conference the weekend to really stew over this, think about what it means to side with democrats who we know already said they would save johnson or what it would mean to vote johnson out which does not seem popular by any stretch of the imagination among republicans here. one of the key questions i had that i didn't seem to get an answer to. if not johnson, who then? remember that three-week speaker battle in the fall. take a listen to what she said to me. >> i'm not naming names, but i think we have people that are capable. anybody that's willing to fight for our agenda. anyone that refuses to share the power with hakeem jeffries. that's something that we're capable of doing. if we decide to do it.

this republican conference can do it. i have watched us do great things. >> do you want mccarthy back again? >> that's not what i said. he's moved on. what our conference is capable of doing is electing someone that is ready and willing to lead, and i have full faith and confidence we can do it. we just have to do it. >> reporter: speaker johnson promptly responded with a very short statement saying this motion is wrong for the republican conference, wrong for the institution and wrong for the country. >> julie tsirkin keep us posted. boy, mike johnson is in the thick of it, and the republican caucus seems to continue to be their own worst enemy, thank you very much. up next here on "ana cabrera reports from the trial to the trail, donald trump is campaigning in some key swing states for the first time since his historic criminal trial got underway. could he say something that violates his gag order again? aga

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all way day long! wayday starts may 4th so mark your calendar. and start filling your cart! ♪ wayfair. every style. every home. ♪ welcome back. a break from the trial and on to the trail. donald trump embarking on a midwest swing today with campaign stops in wisconsin, michigan, his first public campaign rally since the start of his criminal hush money trial, which has kept trump inside a new york courtroom most of the time. these campaign events come just a day after the judge in that case ruled that trump repeatedly violated the gag order hitting

him with fines and warning him with jail time if he does it again. joining us now nbc news correspondent shaquille brewster in waukesha, wisconsin. also with us, former deputy assistant attorney general harry litman and former federal prosecutor kristy greenberg, they were both in the courthouse, in the courtroom at times this week. so shaq, set the stage for us today. what is trump planning there? >> reporter: hi there, ana. look, donald trump gets the return to the place where he's said he wanted to be for the past couple of weeks as he's been sitting many that new york city courtroom deal with that trial. a couple hundred of them lining up behind me, not just here in wisconsin, but in michigan. of course two key battleground states that he lost in 2020 after winning in 2016. and to that point, the messaging here and these visits are more than about those who will be inside those rall inside those

events who will be listening to him directly. it will be about those swing voters, those who have changed their positions and preferences over time. it is a county still dominated by conservative, since donald trump won in 2016 you've seen it shift ever so slightly towards democrats. i want you to listen to what some folks told me about how much that trial is impacting how they view him on the trial. >> the trial seems to be more of a kangaroo court, and i don't take it seriously, and i think very few people do. >> it's not too glaring to me that it would stop me from voting for him or anything like that. >> i guess i don't want somebody that has been through a trial for criminal offenses to be my president of the united states. >> reporter: that last woman is someone who said she supported donald trump in 2020, and the democrats, by the way, are

taking advantage of this visit, highlighting abortion and taking advantage in highlights that they have a ground game in a way that the trump campaign does not in these battleground states. >> shaq brewster, thanks for that reporting. we will of course be watching to see how careful trump is with his words as he heads out to these campaign events we know yesterday he got hit with the fines because of violations from the gag order. judge juan merchan also threatened him with jail time, with incarceration if he continues doing that. yesterday after the trial he complained about being taken off the trail. take a listen. >> i'm going to go to this trial, i'm going to sit in a freezing cold icebox for eight hours, nine hours or so. they took me off the campaign trail, but the good news is my poll numbers are the highest they've of been so at least we're getting the word out. everybody knows this trial is a

scam. >> forgive me, that was before the trial resumed yesterday. he keeps saying very similar things, obviously calling the trial a scam there. but as he impose out to talk directly with his supporters at these campaign events in wisconsin and michigan today, harry, do you think the judge's warning about incarceration, do you think the fines that he is now going to have to pay will deter him from violating the gag order further? >> yes and no. the fines won't and that's what the judge said, a thousand dollars a pop doesn't mean anything to trump. but for that very reason, the judge here did something no other judge has done. the other judges have been kind of tiptoeing. this judge has said now for the first time, next time, mr. trump, you're looking a the going in jail. maybe just a couple of hours in our holding cell back there. he's actually raised the sword and the next move is to let it fall. so you know, if he's not deterred, it means he wants to go to jail, and i think the

judge understands that. if he wants to, he's going to have to indulge him. >> and so kristy, even though trump keeps complaining about being muzzled, he's still, you knowing, saying things like we showed in that clip. he's still there on social media attacking the judge, calling this trial a witch hunt. is that just evidence that this gag order isn't perhaps as limiting as he would like people to believe it is? >> right, it's not. the gag order actually allows him to attack the judge. it allows him to say that it's a witch hunt. it allows him to say things about doj. none of that is prevented. what you can't do is you kaine make statements about the jurors, which he has done. he's said things hike 95% of this jury is democrats. heir against me. can't make any statements about witnesses. the judge called out michael cohen and stormy daniels and said this gag order can't be

used as a sword. it a's shield to protect you. you also can't use it a sword. that was an interesting wrinkle to try and make things fair such that if he does impose jail on trump it is a more protected sentence without this provocation from others. >> speaking of witnesses we left off yesterday in the trial with keith davidson on the stand. he was the former lawyer of karen mcdougal and stormy daniels and he was directly involved in both the deals to silence these women. harry, you were inside the courtroom yesterday. how damning was his testimony? what did he reveal? >> what he really did is bring right up. the stormy daniels transactions were convoluted and there were a lot of sort of bumps in the road. the main thing that was clear from his testimony, once the access hollywood l tape hit, everyone was in a complete panic

mode. there were these boring emails, and then you have his exchanges with a guy at "national enquirer" saying he's effed, forget it. the campaign's over. that was the deep feeling everyone had. it made it very tangible that whatever was happening with stormy daniels was to try to save the campaign, which they thought was hanging by a thread. >> your top takeaways? >> there was testimony that in 2011 this story with stormy daniels and donald trump had been released by dirty.com. didn't get a lot of attraction. in 2016 there season interest until access hollywood. what's interesting about those earlier time periods, it shows this was ab the election. if it was just about donald trump trying to protect his family and reputation, he would have paid her off sooner. it was after access hollywood. it was right leading up to the election. that's what mattered. hearing some of his testimony and the history of it has been really interesting to make that point.

>> and you point out the timing of that, in fact, the quote from davidson was that the interest in daniels' story after the access hollywood tape came out reached a crescendo, direct quote from david. he'll be back on the stand tomorrow. got to leave it there for today, harry litman, kristy greenberg, good to see you. quote, if we don't win, you know, it depends. that's how donald trump's answered my next guest's question about political violence if he doesn't win in november. what else he is saying and will voters take him at his word when it comes to his vision for a second term? and really, do they care? for a second term? and really, do they care today, at america's beverage companies,... ...our bottles might still look the same... ...but they can be remade in a whole new way.

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wooooo! in a new exclusive and revealing interview with "time" magazine, donald trump answers the question what would happen if he wins? "time's" eric cordalessa who had two interviews with trumps and spoke with his advisers and confidants writes, trump thinks he's identified a crucial mistake of his first term, he was too nice. and he goes on to point this picture of a second trump term, a deportation operation to remove millions, detention camps, letting red states monitor women's pregnancies, prosecuting abortion ban violators, firing u.s. attorneys who don't carry out his orders,

and potential pardons of every one of his supporters accused of attacking the capitol on january 6th. joining us now is the author of that "time" piece along with democratic strategist basil smikle and susan del percio. thank you for joining. kellyanne conway said to you, i don't think it is a big mystery what his agenda would be, but i think people would be surprised at the alck alacrity with which he will take action. >> donald trump plans to come into a second term prepared to carry out his agenda, unrestrained, in a way he was not in the first term. he has the experience from serving in office once before to know how to remove many of the guardrails that stood in his way last time from being able to

implement his designs on government. what he's doing right now is he is putting in place a strategic coordinated plan to seize power in a way he was unable to in the first term, backed by a slew of advisers and policy groups who are building an infrastructure right now to help him do that. and carry it out more effectively in a second term than he was able to in the first. >> so, eric, when you walked away from that interview,you talked to him for more than an hour and had a follow-up conversation with him, what was it that struck you most about the conversation? >> we went into this interview with the mission of writing a story for our readers and the american voting public about what trump would do with a second term to tell people in his own words his vision for the nation, and what he would do if he were to return to the white house. we felt that was in the interest of the public good.

and donald trump is a man who, while dodging a number of questions, i asked him, really hides in plain sight. he tells you exactly what he's going to do. he's going to carry out a mass ive deportation operation to try to remove immigrants. he's willing to use the national guard and the military in spite of the act which says the military can't be deployed on civilians. he's willing to induce local and state police departments to join in that effort through funding initiatives. he says he would be willing to prosecute a u.s. attorney who doesn't follow his orders to prosecute a specific target, he says on abortion he is going to make this a state's rights issue. he refused to confirm to me he would veto any kind of federal restrictions on abortion, and said that states would have to make their determinations themselves. that would include, you know, states that decide to monitor women's pregnancies, to see if they can get an abortion after the ban or even to prosecute

them if they got an abortion after the ban. it also goes in the other direction, right? he says he would be -- he would allow states to have much more lax abortion laws. so, donald trump is a man who tells you exactly what he's going to do and we wanted to relay what he told me to everybody else. >> susan, there is a lot there, and it is quite a stark picture, right? is this the america that voters want? is this what they are going to vote for? >> well, first, i hope everyone reads eric's piece because it is so enlightening. donald trump has always been the most transparent and transactional politician we have ever seen. and so, will he continue down this road? absolutely. he thinks by saying red states and abortion rights he gets -- he could still talk to swing state suburban women. but i think it will take a cumulative effect because everything that donald trump has said in this interview, people already know.

the question is come election day, will they zero in on it. >> but, monitoring women's pregnancies, deportation, i wonder what about that, you know, ideological middle, basil, does this give them reason to not vote for trump? >> this is the donald trump we all heard of, we all know. i would offer the point when people tell you who they are, you should believe them. in the first go-round with donald trump, there was a sense of, well, he's saying it, he doesn't really mean it, he is not going to actualize it. but i think what eric's piece is saying is that now he has people around him who are more loyal to him than would be in his first term, that were in his first term, he understands the power of government, the guardrails will be off, and even if he's not allowed to employ the military in -- within the united states, he can influence

paramilitary organizations like police departments. so, if you're concerned about the power that he had in the first term, just be very afraid of what he will do in his -- if he ever gets a second term. >> and you just still think about what we are -- our country is dealing with following january 6th and the ongoing prosecutions of people who tried to overtake the capitol, this attempted insurrection. trump has said he absolutely would consider pardoning every one of these january 6th rioters who have already either pleaded guilty or been convicted. this group includes people who were caught brandishing or using firearms, stun guns, flagpoles, fire extinguishers, bike racks, batons, a metal whip, office furniture, pepper spray, bear spray, tomahawk ax, a hatchet, a hockey stick, knuckle gloves, a baseball bat, massive trump billboard, trump flags, a pitch fork, pieces of lumber, crutches, even an explosive

device during this brutal attack that injured about 140 police officers. so, susan, is there no recognition of that? >> he'll hire them. who are you kidding? they'll pass the loyalty test. and what is important about what basil said about the first term, the people who told donald trump what to do and got in his way in donald trump's mind, they were following the constitution. donald trump says he doesn't need the -- he doesn't want the constitution in place, basically, for one day, he said. i think he'll break every rule in the book, and won't care and, yes, you could see a deputy secretary for something. >> in eric's piece, trump said he doesn't think there will be political violence around the 2024 election. but that it, quote, always depends on the fairness of an election. talk about the danger of a statement like that. >> well, listen, we talked about whether or not donald trump would pardon any of the january 6ers. i'm concerned about that.

but i'm more concerned about what he will criminalize. and who he will put in jail. and to me what we think about elections, my students are concerned about this, they're concerned this would be the last fair election that they would be able to vote in. because to your question, you know, he -- he will do whatever he can in his power with guardrails, without guardrails, to find a way to promote his power, to expand his power, and to empower those that are incredibly loyal to him. and if you're going to be concerned, this is the time to be concerned. >> well, there is a lot of information for people to understand where trump's head is, as they consider who to vote for in this upcoming election. and thank you so much, eric, for sharing that with us and joining us today. susan del percio, basil smikle, thank you as well. that does it for us today. see you back here tomorrow, same time, same place. i'm ana cabrera reporting from new york. jose diaz-balart picks up our coverage right now.