they become centers of their communities. real solutions for kids and communities at aft.org thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. the beat starts right now. hi, ari. >> welcome to the beat. tonight, the news driving this trump trial is simple.

you don't need to be a news junkie or lawyer to grasp what's driving the trial and why many have made headway with the jury in this case. the reason is receipts. this trial, which is about all kinds of stuff, is currently working against trump as a defendant because there are just so many receipts. receipts include the onslaught of e-mails and secret texts and mdas and as i mentioned last night, i was inside the courtroom yesterday in one of the rare, coveted reporter seats and i can tell you we also saw along with the jury, actual, literal receipts. written contracts of this whole sordid scheme to buy silence of women who had allegations against trump and the

allegations that he and allies directly tried to hide in that campaign year. it's a pile of paperwork that is essentially burying trump's main defenses. remember, in the first week, trump's lawyers detailed these certain trump defenses. they were basically factual denials. i'm reminding you what they said. it's simple. the first two are these denials that nothing happened. he didn't do it or if anything happened, his lawyer, cohen, did it. well, these receipts are shredding that kind of denial and that really helps the d.a.'s case. it also does something strategic. i've told you we're going to live through this trial forever. the first ever historic trial of a former president. and we're going to learn things as we go. so what we heard a month back was kind of a kind of projection based on some evidence, but now, we're seeing how it works and it's interesting. he could know he could still

skate on a mistrial, a hung jury. but i can tell you legally, the d.a. is making headway with that jury that i watched yesterday. that's because they're doing something strategic. i'll tell you right now what it is. the way they're trying to case is helping the jury see the facts, the core facts that trump had this history, that he made these sort of purchases of silence, that he did it for campaign related reasons. they're making the jury see those kind of facts as arguably proven, as true before they even hear from these star witnesses that we are told are so important. big names that even if you don't follow politics, most people now have heard of. like michael cohen and stormy daniels. why? why would you put your star that late? well, we are seeing the strategic reason. if those witnesses for the jury end up feeling more like an afterthought, if they're just

kind of the proverbial icing, then the d.a. has to basically show jurors we already proved this, right, and you saw the receipts and double connections. the lawyer on one side, the other side admit the same thing and you saw the receipt for it. the nda for it and you saw that trump paid for it. so their argument in plain english to the jury is it doesn't even matter if trump's defense lawyer attacks some of those witnesses. it doesn't matter because you already knew what happened. it doesn't matter to the court case which the receipts confirmed is what the d.a. argues. and the jury is seeing that paper trail. so i'm explaining why this matters. now i'll show you some of this like a 2017 e-mail from a white house aide asking for specific labels for the checks the president just signed for cohen. the signature shows it and the key aides knew it and the funds point to the same thing. donald trump paid cohen back for an inflated amount for the

secret deals. that's the money part. as for criminal intent, prosecutors want to prove trump's motivation was this off the books. again, they are trying to get that pretty proven before cohen ever takes the stand. so if cohen says it was clear to him that this was to do a campaign crime and do it off the books and that's what he pled guilty to and the trump lawyers say who believes this guy and here's the reasons you shouldn't, the jury will be told through the receipts and everything else, you don't need cohen for this. remember, everything we showed you in the beginning of the trial like other things in life, a lot of people feel like whatever they get first is more important. now, on the campaign part, trump and clinton both clinched their party's nominations in june. campaign politics stretched from june all the through october 16 when the, excuse me, october 7th, year '16, when the access hollywood tape came out.

that is when the jury saw that this lawyer, the women texted in enquirer editor, trump is f-ed. the enquirer guy responds, wave the white flag, it's over, people. that was the mind state of the people doing these secret deals. it was that month that there was nervousness because cohen was trying walk away without paying anything. my guy's in five states today. three or four or five. there's nothing i can do. i'm doing everything i can with some expletives as well. the point is think about it. there's nothing cohen could do because he needed donald trump's personal sign off and if he was flying around in the air or on stage, he couldn't get to him. and if he couldn't get to him, he couldn't sign off. that undercuts what trump's defense lawyers will tell you. the denial that i told you about that well, maybe cohen did it all on his own or maybe you

can't believe what cohen says since he got in trouble. the receipt, the text shows at the time, in secret, before they had any idea any of this would ever go public this way, cohen's story checks out. what they're going to tell the jury here, i'm not quoting this part yet. this is what you would get in a closing argument. what they're basically building up to tell the jury is you don't have to believe anything cohen said this year. you just have to believe the texts because that's what they sent down because they're real and this is a court. the judge tells the jury what evidence they should look at. that's what's admissible. defense lawyers aren't allowed to do fake news like they do on the campaign trial and say oh, those texts were made up and they're fake. they're not allowed to say that kind of thing. but a text show a problem. now, court was actually dark today like it is most wednesdays so this defendant could make a

midwest campaign trip. he's back in court tomorrow. there will be another gag order hearing with new violations alleged. this has higher stakes after the judge warned jail time is a possible penalty for violations. you see the sketch of the judge. he said from the bench as well in his written order finding trump lost the gag order. they won't tolerate willful violations and if necessary, will impose incarceration. the judge is holding the line while avoiding trump's efforts to try to lean in and turn it into a big clash of a circus. the judge delayed dealing with the gag order longer than he had to, best we can tell, let's show the defendant this thing is on. you're not capsizing. trump's allies are trying to take this $9,000 fine and turn it into the greatest injustice of the year or decade. they're presenting what is legally a fairly measured

response from the judge as something more. remember, other defendants have been jailed before trial for smaller violations of a gag order than what we've seen here, which included lying about the judge's daughter and going after witnesses. so this was legally, a measured response. now, people can debate whether they like it or not. other people can say they shouldn't even fine him because what is $9,000. as a factual matter, this was a measured response from the judge. but over in some corners, they're treating it as a kind of out of control judicial threat. >> one, $9,000 fine. contempt. i predict there will never be a bigger fund raising moment for donald trump than this one. >> they are threatening the throw the republican nominee for

president in jail for talking, harris. for talking during an election. now i'm not a lawyer. just play one on tv. but according to the gag, you could have the lochness monster as a juror and trump can say the monster isn't real and boom, that's $1,000. >> just really helps you understand it. just follow that analogy. factually, that would be a misleading rendition of this gag order. but beyond conservative media, it's worth noticing how the trial news keeps breaking through. we're seeing it as the big deal it is. i don't say that to mean it's automatically bad for trump. everyone knows he's on trial in new york city and skates with a hung jury, it may play as some kind of comeback, but what the fox folks are spinning, that

somehow there's an out of control judge, that's not the way it's necessarily playing across the country. on late night, there are punch lines about the gag order. >> i know. $9,000 may not seem like a lot to a successful business man, but what about for trump? >> the judge also told trump that if he continues to violate the gag order, he might lock him up. melania was like don't let the judge tell you what to do, keep -- be a man. >> for violating his gag order nine times. trump was like but i get the tenth one free, right? >> people know what's happening. this trial is going forward. i can't tell you what the outcome will be and i'm not going to tell you whether the outcome is good or bad when it happens. because in the rule of law, it

is actual justice we're pursuing. that means you have a fair trial, not one hijacked by threats of violence or the defendant's antics but if you finish a fair trial, the result is the product of that fair trial. no one's going to be happy with any of all the outcomes. that's why we try to have a transparent, fair trial with the rule of law. i can tell you this defendant opposes that kind of thing. both for himself and for others. i can tell you about that history. we've lived through that. but it is a hallmark of civilized society of the civilization we want to be, not the one we always are, that we afford those rights to all. regardless of who they are and regardless they are a part of the group of people who would not afford those rights to others. you might say legally, it is a type of michelle obama rule. you go high and stay high no matter what. what we are seeing as the trial

grinds on with these receipts and strategy of the d.a. is they are making headway in the efforts to disrupt, delay, hijack, or circusify this trial by the defendant are failing. we turn to our experts in 90 seconds. experts in 90 seconds. oh thanks! i splurged a little because liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. that's great. i know, right? i've been telling everyone. baby: liberty. did you hear that? ty just said her first word. can you say “mama”? baby: liberty. can you say “auntie”? baby: liberty. how many people did you tell? only pay for what you need. jingle: ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ baby: ♪ liberty. ♪ when you have chronic kidney disease, there are places you'd like to be. like here. and here.

not so much here. farxiga reduces the risk of kidney failure which can lead to dialysis. ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ ♪♪ farxiga can cause serious side effects, including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, urinary tract or genital yeast infections and low blood sugar. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking farxiga and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, an allergic reaction, or ketoacidosis. when you have chronic kidney disease, it's time to ask your doctor for farxiga. because there are places you want to be. if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ we're back with prosecutor morati and molly john fast.

molly, here we are at the table. i mentioned that you could only learn about these things sort of as they go. cohen and stormy are being almost held as the closer to a case that by the time you get to your closer, you better have made a lot of the case. what do you think about that strategy from the d.a.'s side and the story about the receipts. we have plenty to have lawyers around, but you, story telling for a magazine, know a thing or two about putting a story together and it had order matters. >> right, and the big problem with this case is michael cohen. that he may or may not be a sort of witness. he's just not as good a witness as someone like david pecker and i think david pecker has been meticulous and not emotional. you know, he's gone through the story in a very clear way and then they backed at every point, they backed it up with documents. i think a lot of people have watched this trial and been really pleasantly surprised with just how organized and

methodical the case they're making is and that these more salacious characters stormy aren later and more for color. >> i want to mention something that will be no surprise to you, but i didn't get time to mention it yesterday when i was in court in our coverage. in court yesterday, we, everyone in court, including most importantly, the jurors, spent over an hour staring at a screen with this log of texts and it was zoomed out so you couldn't make out any individual one. but over 15 texts in like a row. then they would zoom in on one and come out. the experience might be like the worst accountant internship you've ever gotten, but it felt like not only in substance but in tone, they were trying to show the jury as i mentioned in

our open, we have got this all. anyone coming in to talk about it is just reconfirming and explaining what we have in this text receipts. >> you know what was so important about those receipts, ari, is it shows how donald trump is in the thick of everything. you know, one defense you could have, right, if you were a defendant here, is hey, i was running for president. i was a rich guy and all these businesses. i wasn't focused on this. this wasn't important to me. there's no way he can make that defense here because they have the receipts that show he was intimately involved. you had shown something where michael cohen was like, i can't reach him. this is a guy running for president and his lawyer is trying to reach him in the middle of all that to discuss this issue. this hush money scheme in the midst of that campaign for president. he was involved. he was hands on. this was his scheme. that's really what the prosecution is showing through those text messages. >> yeah. and molly, take a listen to how

d.a. bragg and his very rare public comments announcing the indictment spoke about how it came down to a paper trail. receipts, wires, texts with cohen involved. >> less than two weeks before the presidential election, michael cohen wired $130,000 to stormy daniels' lawyer. that payment was to hide damaging information from the voting public. the scheme violated new york election law. >> straightforward in their view. >> right. and what was crucial and critical and day got right away which i think was so important, this was not about protecting melania and the defense wants you to think this is about trump protecting his family but we know, and that's what pecker spoke to, he knew this was about the campaign. that the access hollywood tape had come in and they were worried that these two other allegations would sink his campaign. >> yeah. and renado, again, we don't make

the news, we report on it and the parts that are dry are dry. politico also had a kind of a similar observation about the davidson testimony yesterday. i'll read that to you. while they're colorful claims a the core, davidso had a presentation that was cautious and calculated. in other words, lawyerly. for prosecutors, his stayed recollection may be a welcome contrast to another witness who's all but certain to testify against trump, former fixer cohen, who arrange the deals and who molly, myself, and the d.a. in the sound bite just referenced. do you share that assessment or what do you think? >> i agree and that's why these are our early witnesses. molly was talking a moment ago about how to put together a story. as a trail lawyer, i think of it as like putting on a play and these are my actors and actresses that i'm putting on essentially to set a stage.

and in the beginning, you want to have your more stayed, your more careful witnesses. you don't want the first impression from the jury to be something wildly crazy. you want them to see the evidence being built and davidson had key testimony. he was talking about for example how trump understood it was going to be those companies footing the bill. tieing this together with the false statements and business records that are really core to the charges here for the district attorney. >> understood. molly, if we had more time, i would ask you for your view of the c-span records custodian witness, but it was too boring and uneventful to get into. >> can i just put a plug in? c-span is amazing. i listen to their podcast every night. it's totally unfiltered. it's a really good view of government. if there's one thing you want to do, it's listen. >> we talk about facts. one of the points that came up

yesterday, i'm half joking that it was a boring part, but it was only that the c-span record person said this is the really video we took of trump so now it's admissible. it speaks to the fact that c-span, it was their last resort. molly, good to see you. renado, stick around. i got something special coming up and i want to get your legal vows on it. and the abortion ban takes effect in florida today. and obama campaign veteran is here to talk about why what you read might affect what you think and if that sounds simple, it's actually deeply important with the coming election. but first, we turn to another perspective inside the d.a.'s case of why they want to supersize this misdemeanor into a felony. i promise you this next segment is going to help you understand

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welcome back. we began the show looking at all the momentum and headway the prosecutors for the d.a. are making in this first ever historic trial of a former president, donald trump. it has been striking. we've seen the former president seated in the courtroom daily like anyone else and the magnitude felt across the nation. >> the first ever criminal trial of a former president. >> we didn't know what that would look like or feel like. but today, we found out. >> history playing out in lower manhattan. >> the first ever criminal trial of a major party's nominee. >> the scale of the abnormality is so staggering. >> no matter what you are in the country, you are probably talking about this or have heard someone else talking about it. >> it's a big deal and as we

follow what happens each day, we see that momentum. the case is barrelling forward. the d.a. has the receipts. the core, underlying incident of whether this money was paid and lied about seems highly likely to be proven. legally, he's presumed innocent, but the fact that the money changed hands, silence was purchased, the enquirer was on board, all of that, it would be clear for publishing. but there's more here and that goes to an interesting point in understanding the case and the defense side because what i mentioned that incident is not the only thing the d.a. has to prove. they are also accusing trump of a kind of campaign crime in a conspiracy for the 2016 election specifically and they have this new york law about unlawful means. well here on the beat, we always try to give you all of the facts. that's why we talk to all of the primary sources we can get to and try to look at both sides.

we're joined by a legal expert who is written in "the new york times" about why the theory they're uing is mistake and the d.a. has quote, a vague allegation against trump which causes concern about what could be an unprecedented use of state law alleging a campaign conspiracy crime related to a federal election. i can also tell you that legal experts disagree about this very issue so what we're showing you is one perspective, but not the only one. it's going to be relevant as the case goes forward and whether donald trump's defense lawyers are going to be able to convince one or more jurors of the facts, did he do it, or the law, does this meet the elements of the campaign crime alleged as a felon. we are now joins by law professor, jed sugarman, the author of "the new york times" piece. also the author of the people's

courts. so, professor, thanks for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> renado, see you in a minute. >> sounds good. >> okay. professor, it's just me and you to start as you explain why specifically whether or not people think the d.a. picked the right case or should do heavier or lighter or the same approach to the fact it's a former president. let's put that to the side and talk about your concern to the campaign theory and how that could come up in this trial or as reasonable doubt. >> the key way that the manhattan d.a. is taking a misdemeanor and making it a felony is alleging a violation of the federal election campaign act. it's the first of four reasons why this is unprecedented, untested or dusting off the books to find something that hasn't been used for 40 or 50 years. so, first, i found as i searched for state prosecutors use of this law, the federal election

campaign act, i couldn't find in american history a single example of this. let me pause this and say that's one of my chief concerns about the rule of law. i have been dreading the return of donald trump. he's told us what he wants to do with the department of justice. he campaigned on locking her up. the other side, we have been arguing back about the rule of law and it depends on precedence. if the prosecutors are reaching for new theories or untested theories, it first of all makes it seem like the rule of law gets to be convenient. >> i'm not soliciting your opinion of their ethics. you're not reporting. you don't have any allegation against d.a. bragg. i'm soliciting your legal view so let's stick to the federal part. you're saying if one of the possible laws that supersizes the new felony is a federal violation being pursued in state

court, that is your view of the record unprecedented. let's call it unusual. that makes it tougher for this jury to prove. >> it makes a question of whether this practice is a matter of law or norms. there is a preemption clause this the statute. it says in the law itself more or less this is for federal enforcement and it turns out what i found is it only has been. >> so that's a fair criticism they're going to have to answer. second, once the trial started, the d.a. points to the state law about campaigning through unlawful means as you accurately referenced. that's one of several options but now the main one. what do you say to that? >> well, it turns out there's an article a couple of days ago from business insider that has found several experts, veteran

lawyers, have said they've never heard of the statute being raised. someone else found this hasn't been used since the '70s or 1981. so it's another example of reaching back for untested or rare uses. >> legally, do you -- we'll put it on the screen again. legally, does it, in your legal view, apply or not apply? two people conspire to elect someone through quote unlawful means. could the allegations in this case constitute unlawful means in your legal view? or is that a really high bar? >> well, this statute is just a conspiracy place holder. it doesn't stand on its own. this would be, if this were being prosecuted on its own as unlawful means, that's simply too vague for a prosecutor to stand on. the way it works is that the manhattan d.a. is relying on the state law as a shoe horn for

getting to the federal law. so they still have to prove a federal violation to enable this vague statute as conspiracy laws operate. that's the only way to convict someone. >> let me say it another way then you respond. the d.a.'s theory, if they use this statute on the screen, is that there was this lie, the business fraud. it was lying to hide a second violation that is this thing. and that is what makes it a felony. what do you say to the d.a. argument that the lie is substantially proven? i don't think you're up here tonight saying it was all up and up on the original thing, and here's your secondary offense. what do you say to that? >> lying is not illegal. >> no, but business fraud is, like i said. legally presumed innocent but i don't think you're here saying nothing happened. >> no, i think this was a violation of federal law. i think it was.

but the doj decided not to prosecute this. so the facts are definitely ugly and ugly enough to say if the federal, if federal prosecutors had decided to bring this, i would not be raising these questions but that is exactly the question. right? this is for federal prosecutors and i think the biden administration deserves more credit for using their discretion here and that's the concern here is that ari, this is what the, this is why lawyers talk about jurisdiction. this is the law. carl sandburg said if you don't have the facts, argue the law. if you don't have the law on your side, argue the facts. if you have neither, stand on the table and yell. turns out we might have expected the trump team to stand on the table and yell, but the facts are indeed not just ugly, i think this is a federal violation, but the law says this is only for federal courts. >> so hang with me. as promised, renado comes back in. welcome back. you've been listening.

what do you think of the point that jed raises and i want to be clear with the evidence. a legal defense like this could give jurors reasonable doubt. meaning if you take everything the professor said and you add it up to a jury going yeah, i don't know that they proved the second one, that could be. or you could have a conviction overturned on appeal for some of these reasons. >> well, look. i respect the professor's scholarly opinion. i think it's just that. first of all, i don't expect to be an argument trump's team leans on in court. if somebody's tried a lot of cases, jurors aren't going to find this compelling at all. >> you think it's too complicated? >> yeah. it's hard to follow. i. >> got to be honest, i host this show and at points, i got confused. >> right. i don't think a juror is going to follow this. >> what about appeal? >> yeah, i don't see that either. the judge wrote a 30-page

opinion going through all of these points. and dealing with them and i thought it was well put. now, the reality is the d.a.'s office frequently uses federal statutes as the underlying concealed crime, just not that one. not this particular campaign offense and that's because this isn't like stealing a pack of gum from the 7-11. it's something that doesn't happen often. >> that's the, always the issue with precedent. you say we don't have a lot of cases about how to deal with a president inviting his fans to storm the capitol. yeah, well it only happened once. take your point on that. i want to give the professor the last word. what do you say to the again nuanced point that renado raises that if this were on appeal, the d.a. would argue to the appeals courts, of course, a aggrevating aspect of this can be hiding it from the feds because the state and federal government have a

strong interest in preventing people from cover ups of other crimes. >> so it turns out that that's one of the other reasons why this is all unprecedented. the, trump's lawyers argue that this is not the way the state statute works. it's never been used this way and the manhattan d.a. could not cite a single precedence. >> that if you commit business fraud to hide money that was going to a terrorist organization on the federal list at the federal fbi dealing with because that's generally a federal, that you're not going to get off on the technicality of oh, that's not technically a new york crime that i was hiding. >> in state courts, this is an untested theory and in federal court, this would also be looked at as beyond the jurisdiction of state courts to reach out into, to use state filing laws as a kind of campaign finance regulation. >> yeah. >> that's what the manhattan

d.a. is doing. >> we wanted to hear the view. i appreciate both of you. thanks to both. up next, we've talked a lot about how we know what we know. do you ever feel like you talk to people and they have a whole different idea about what is reality? our friend, obama campaign vet, on a very interesting political divide and how to bridge it, coming up. de and how to bridge , coming up. with bounce pet, you can cuddle and brush that hair off. bounce, it's the sheet. try killing bugs the worry-free way. not the other way. zevo traps use light to attract and trap flying insects with no odor and no mess. they work continuously, so you don't have to. zevo. people-friendly. bug-deadly. when we say it'll be on time, they expect it to be on time. turn shipping to your advantage. keep those expectations with reliable ground shipping.

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we hear about so many

divides as the clashes over abortion rights and law these days. people who support trump who have lost recent elections and the people who oppose him. strong feelings all around but did you know one of the great divides is not just about what we believe, but how we came to believe what we believe. the information, the facts, the very reality we accept. you get it from a "new york times" and the official news or do you get it from somewhere else? we live in a time when there is of course more media and content than ever before. and i can tell you this up front. people who still read newspapers to get information prefer president biden by a whopping margin. you look at this. not by left or right or where you live but just how do you get your information. newspapers, all kinds, overwhelmingly go to the current president. but trump has a major lead among those who don't follow political

news at all and that is, did you know this, most people. you watching or listening to this, me doing this work, we deal with the news. most people don't. now apply that to what people are learning. take the magazine, time, that's pretty old school. trump just did a series of interviews where he admitted he's still open to using political violence if he loses. the kind of claim that used to disqualify someone. he said it depends if he doesn't win. there's new polling that shows a different divide. when you look at other types of media, people say, oh, i get my information from google or youtube. which is a lot of people. 55% back trump. a much smaller share there prefer biden. social media is closer and reflects sort of who you are and where you go. but if this is going to be a youtube election and i can provide you a lot more people watch videos on youtube than on

traditional tv or cable, then trump has an edge. jake is a political strategist who's worked on the obama and other campaigns and is pretty shrewd about history and technology. welcome. >> glad to be here, ari. >> we'll put some of the charts back up. i ran through them quickly to get to you. what does it tell you that there is this newspaper information and no news gap? >> well, it tells me interestingly enough this there's been a paradigm shift in american politics. for most of recent history, most of my lifetime, the belief was the voters who do not, who are unlikely voters, are more likely to be democrats. 20 years ago, larry david wrote an op-ed "the new york times" where he said democrats should stop going after undecided voters and go after unlikely voters. americans coming together to spend millions to get unlikely

voters to vote. today if you did those efforts, you would actually run the risk of bringing trump voters to the pulse. and the reason is that where we get our news is extremely important. our information inputs say a lot about us and what we believe. you know, none of us can live in the world, understand it, without understanding it and interpreting it. it's kind of why a study of the humanities is so important. it teaches us to think critically about what we understand and interpret the world. the problem is the maga base and republicans and lots of people are getting their interpretation of the world and understanding of the world from people like tucker carlson and donald trump. people who are telling them that there is a brown menace, that there are people, deep state things out to get you. and trump is saying i am your retribution against those people. >> that's a deep foundation if you think you have the truth. there was an old political saying by a candidate who said if my opponent stops lying about

me, i'll stop telling the truth about him. as you may know in this escalating war of poetry between drake and kendrick lamar, kendrick dropped yesterday and quoted that line. a lot of the art as you mentioned deals with history. he's saying ta drake has been lying about him and he's now going to expose truths like a campaign clash. why do you think it matters in the type of politics that we have today that we're talking so much about truth and belief? because if you're going to have a traditional you know, debate about resources, should we fund schools or not, wouldn't seem that would have to turn into these core clashes about what is even true. >> yeah. so yeah so funding schools is an economic issue and one where compromise is very possible. you can split the thing in half. the problem is most of our politics is about cultural issues. it's about who we are. not how we fund the things that are important to us, but who we

are. those are not subject to compromise for lots of people. it's much, much harder for people to compromise on what they believe as core believes about their identity and fears. >> fascinating. here we are talking through the prism of msnbc. part of nbc news writ large. you can go up the line. full disclosure, here we are inside the media talking about this, but with our best efforts and independence, is it also then a complicating factor that so much media today gets pulled into being a part, willingly or not, of truth. because traditional news should be truth first. you can add other thoughts on top of it, but we have to have that truth. so if you think about like an npr tote bag, does it say i listen to factual radio or say something about a wider set of believes. sorry for such a high pha fluten question. >> i think what you're saying is

that some things like reading "the new york times" is seen as token of education, status, cultural identity as opposed to other thing. the thing is that those things are really secondary and should be secondary to us when we think about the news. the reason i read "the new york times" is not that they're right all the time, but i know there's a high probability that they are basing their conclusions on evidence and when they get things wrong, which they do, they correct them. that is not the case with a lot of right wing news and podcasts. just look at the candidacy of robert f. kennedy, which is based on the idea that covid has, that vaccines have killed millions of people and covid hasn't. that is factually untrue, but it is being pushed out by him and other right wing sources, podcasts, social media posts, et cetera, so that people believe these things because it's convenient for them to believe. >> yeah. really interesting when you break it down that way, which is why we want to talk to you.

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because of donald trump, more than 20 states have abortion bans. more than 20 trump-abortion bans. at the stroke of midnight, another trump-abortion ban went into effect here in florida. >> that's vice president harris

speaking out in florida where that new law bans basically all abortions after six weeks. very limited exceptions for rape, incest or even human trafficking. providers slamming it as causing delays in care that's going to cost women significant health hazards or risks. that's just one doctor in florida. voters, though, will be able to act on this very soon. they have a ballot initiative for this november. so just up here in the next half year. democrats say it's a way to have people weigh in on their own rights and also politically democrats believe it will further show that desantis and the people in the republican party running florida are completely out of step with the voters in their own state. trump is saying it will be up to states to decide how they will act or monitor women's pregnancies and can even try to prosecute those who violate state bans. a further hardening of his position here as he runs for president after getting three justices on the supreme court who ended roe and created the

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tonight we talked about with whether you get your information from television news or newspapers or other assorted places on the internet, and i will remind you because it's related, we upload most of what we do here on the show for free on youtube. go to msnbc.com/ari and see the play list. that includes, for example the entire 40 minutes with justice stephen breyer. you can use that link. 40 minutes with the retired justice. we covered a lot more than we had time to cover on msnbc. as a reminder, "the reidout" with joy reid is up next. ♪♪ tonight on "the reidout" -- >> florida