right now on "ana cabrera reports," donald trump's hush money trial just resuming, starting the day with a hearing on four new alleged gag order violations by trump, and soon the former lawyer for stormy daniels and karen mcdougal will

be back on the stand and we have the dramatic highlights from keith davidson's testimony so far. plus, breaking news and traumatic images on the campus of ucla as police move in to disband a protest encampment. we'll take you there live. it is 10:00 eastern, i'm ana cabrera reporting from new york. let's get right to that breaking news at a courthouse in manhattan, donald trump's hush money trial resuming just minutes ago and up first this morning, a hearing on four new alleged gag order violations by the former president, and soon we're expecting keith davidson, former lawyer for stormy daniels and karen mcdougal to return to the stand. our yasmin vossoughian is outside the courthouse and here with me, msnbc's katie phang, criminal defense attorney and former manhattan prosecutor jeremy salan and former assistant attorney general for new york, tristan snell, the author of the book "taking down trump." yasmin, what's happening so far with this gag order hearing? >> reporter: so we're looking at

four potential violations of this gag order in which the people, the attorney for the people presented, two of which were attacking potential witness michael cohen along with david pecker who we know has already testified, and then the fourth attacking the actual jury. in one of the statements, the former president said 95% of this jury is democrats. in two other statements about michael cohen, the former president said michael cohen is a liar, he has no credibility as well. so they're now going through the defense from todd blanche, the former president's attorney as to why he feels as if the former president has not violated these gag orders and why it is so difficult of a position the former president is in. the white house correspondent dinner in which president joe biden mentioned stormy weather in his speech. what is donald trump supposed to do? not respond to that? not mention stormy daniels by name, even though she is going to be a potential witness?

todd blanche goes on to say this is a man who essentially is running for president of the united states while serving as a defendant in this case. he has every right to defend himself outside this courtroom as he has, and oftentimes he is asked these questions directly, and he is merely responding. whereas judge juan merchan says it is your client who is going into these specifics on his own without being asked to go into these specifics by the press. i certainly cannot place a blanket gag order over the press. they are not under my jurisdiction. they are not under my control. at one point the former president turns around and kind of shakes his head incredulously without this back and forth with todd blanche. one more note i want to make on this. it seemed as if when we listened to the gag order testimony in the last round, or the gag order hearing in the last round, it seemed as if todd blanche was more ill-prepared in that moment. he seems much more prepared this time around in defending these potential gag order violations. one other thing to note, it took

about seven days for judge juan merchan to come up with his decision as to whether or not donald trump violated the gag orders last time. so it's likely we will not get a decision on this today, ana. >> okay, yasmin, stand by, and stay with us. just a reminder here, this gag order says trump can't talk about witnesses, members of the prosecution team as well as their families, court staff, their families as well as jurors, and i'll note the gag order does not prohibit comments about district attorney alvin bragg or the judge in this case, judge merchan. katie, we hear trump is looking incred incredulous, he's shaking his head. he keeps saying this gag order is unconstitutional. how can you not allow him to respond when he's a candidate running for president right now. respond to that. >> he can still say what he wants as a political candidate and protected speech is allowed under the first amendment of the united states constitution. the problem is he's already been proven and found by a judge to have run afoul of gag order, one

that i will reemphasize has been limited in nature. it's not some broad gag order. it's been challenged. it's been found to be totally appropriate for somebody like donald trump. what's happening here is his lawyer todd blanche is saying that certain witnesses, for example, michael cohen are purportedly using this gag order as a, quote, sword and a shield, and judge merchan noted that maybe that can be a problem for certain witnesses if they continue to look like they're also flirting with using the gag order as a word and a shield. donald trump is trying to do the same thing. he's trying to basically sayky do and say certain things but i'm not running afallfoul of th gag order. politics does not live in our judicial system. the prosecution announced this morning they're not seeking jail. i think it's a failed opportunity at this point but if they're not seeking jail and all that's going to happen is another fine, then i think you're going to see more from donald trump and so i think

merchan needs to figure out when do we turn the spigot off. although the prosecution said we don't want to create disruptions in the proceeding, i don't think it's disruptive. put him where he needs to be so they cannot violate a court order. if any of us that were sitting here went to court as a defendant in a criminal case and violated a court order, we would be grateful to get a fine, but we wouldn't be at this point, and that's what's frustrating about this. >> there are repeated violations. >> there's this weird standard that's applying that is terribly unfair to the system of justice and it's sending wrong message. >> i want to listen to what the prosecution are alleging are the new gag order violations. here's a clip. >> when are they going to look at all the lies that cohen did in the last trial. he got caught lying in the last trial. so he got caught lying. pure lies. >> that jury was picked so fast. 95% democrats. the area is mostly all democrat,

you think of it as just a purely democrat area. >> michael cohen is a convicted liar and he's got no credibility whatsoever. he was a lawyer, and you rely on your lawyers, but michael cohen was a convicted liar. >> can you talk about what you thought of david pecker's testimony so far? >> he's been very nice. david's been very nice, nice guy. >> in some cases he's answering questions, which is something that his lawyer has said he was just answering the question. it wasn't him who was bringing them up out of thin air. do those sound like gag order violations to you? >> they do, and let's differentiate, donald trump in the courtroom identify said many, many times, innocent until proven guilty. he's done nothing wrong until proven otherwise. donald trump outside the courtroom is dismantling the justice system by blowing up the integrity of that process. and that's what judge merchan is trying to do. he's trying to say there's a process here. i have to protect the jurors. i have to protect the court staff. you've demonstrated before you can't abide by this.

you need to follow my very limited scope and very limited ruling and donald trump is not doing so. the problem is it's a win for donald trump. it's a thousand dollar fine to get your message out to your masses, and if he gets in and goes in, cools his heels somewhere inside, that's going to be a win too. it's a really difficult bind the court finds itself. really terrible. >> they initially had the gag order hearing, the first one last week. the judge ruled on that, tristan, this week on tuesday, and he issued the $9,000 fine, a thousand dollars for each of the violations. those comments we just played were in between those two moments in time, right? the first hearing and his first ruling and then when he made that ruling, he said that incarceratory punishment could come if trump continues to violate the gag order. so does it seem like maybe that warning has worked? do you see evidence of trump now sort of holding his tongue? >> no, no, not really. i mean, look, for him to then

go -- he was going last night into the judge being crooked. he can do that, okay? and he can -- if he wants to rail on alvin bragg, the manhattan d.a., he can do that. what we've seen is he's been getting the warning. it's like this is -- you know, even before we had the whole hearing, there had been admonishment from judge merchan, justice merchan. he had already been giving trump these warnings. they have not had any deterrent effect. he is continuing to push the envelope because he -- it's a game of chicken effectively. he's basically daring everybody to do something about it and nobody's doing anything about it. and i think it bears repeating based on what katie and jeremy were just saying. again, if anybody else did this, they would be facing lockup. they'd be throwing themselves a parade just to get away with some fines. this is not something people get away with, any other defendant,

it would have been a different story. he's continuing to push the envelope. i think he will continue to keep violating these gag orders and keep on trashing witnesses and the jurors until something's done about it, and nothing has been done about it yet. >> let's go back to yasmin because there's been more coming from the courtroom with todd blanche, trump's attorney making arguments for trump, specifically talking about how cohen has been behaving, right? >> basically saying that michael cohen doesn't need the protection that is in place as a potential witness here. one other thing before i get into that, i quickly want to mention, one of the attorneys for the people is not seeking jail time with these potential violations of this gag order jumping off the question you just asked because essentially the argument is it's going to disrupt proceedings. right now they don't want the former president to go to jail if merchan finds he violated these gag orders. let me read for you some of what todd wlanch said in court there, let's talk about michael cohen, two statements, mr. cohen has

been inviting and almost daring the president to respond, personal attacks on his character, mocking him for being on trial and his candidacy for the presidency of the united states. he goes on, mr. cohen has started going on tiktok nightly and literally making money. he actively encourages folks to give him money. he his tiktok repeatedly criticizing the president. this is not a man who needs protection from the gag order. this is something todd blanche -- an argument that todd blanche has been making all morning that michael cohen is kind of inviting, does not need protections from this gag order as other potential witnesses feasibly do because of the fact that he is so public about this fight on tiktok, on social media, on cable news as well. however, judge juan merchan asks one simple question, which i think is really interesting. he says, did he violate the gag order? that's all i want to know and blanche says absolutely positively not, but going back to what you said earlier which is what are the violations of this gag order, it is talking about the jury, and it is

talking about potential witnesses. both of which he has done on these potential violations. >> okay, yasmin, keep us posted. so katie, what does the judge do about the michael cohen tiktok videos and this idea that because -- >> i was like cohen's -- >> does he need to be protected if he's out there continuing to talk and saying things that are inflammatory, i guess his lawyer, trump's lawyer's arguing that cohen doesn't need protection. >> okay, but this is blanche, i'll give him a little bit more credit. this is him trying to turn the issue on its head. michael cohen is not the criminal defendant in this case. he is not the subject of the gag order. the gag order is in place to protect the integrity and the administration of justice. it's not solely to protect the safety of michael cohen. it's the idea that donald trump cannot make comments about witnesses and their participation in this case, so as to not serve as a deterrent for others to be able to come forward and speak the truth about what's happening so that

they don't feel scared or cowed into submission. so that the jurors don't feel like they have to call in sick and get off this jury because they're fearful of what's going to happen when donald trump says 95% of this jury are democrats rushed through this process. so blanche and that's why judge merchan's comment makes him judge merchan. did your client violate the gag order? this is not an open opportunity for you todd blanche to wax and bemoan the problems for your client, you're looking at a contempt hearing. stay within the lane of what the issues are -- >> and your client's own behavior. >> yes, exactly. >> not the what aboutisms. >> exactly. >> what do you think, jeremy? >> i agree within reason. i can appreciate as a defense attorney now, taking that hat as as a prosecutor. my client is being rald by a guy who has his own agenda. what is my client going to do? he is running for president of the united states. he does have a forum to share

his politics. the integrity of the process is critical to maintain: i can appreciate why blanche is making that argument, and frankly, proverbially, michael cohen needs a slap on the behind, if i'm the prosecutors i'm grabbing him by the shoulders and shaking him as hard as i can saying stop running your mouth. you're going to ruin this case. you're going to ruin yourself for a few dollars, your infamy is going to last forever. can't control him like you control donald trump as the court and the defense attorney. >> tristan, the judge has a tough decision to make. does he just hit with some more fines because that's what the law allows here in the state, that or jail time, right? so when you hear yasmin say the prosecution is not asking for jail time in this case because they don't want to disrupt the proceedings and kind of derail the trial, what do you think about that? >> you want my honest answer? >> absolutely. >> okay, look, in terms of the

judge, the american system is an adversarial system. it's not meant for -- the supreme court aside, it's not meant for judges to just sort of be freelancing and making up law as they go along. they're supposed to make decisions based on what both sides say. if the defense is saying he did nothing wrong and the prosecution is saying please don't put him in jail, the judge is not going to put him in jail. the prosecution not seeking incarceration here is i think the wrong decision, and we have to remember this is a prosecution that really almost never got brought in the first place. it got revived in 2023 in a modified limited form, and i think that there's a certain degree o'which if people want to see justice happen, they need to be -- they need to have their voices heard. >> but what if it derails the trial? >> somebody's going to have to -- look, i'm open to arguments here, but i would to v to hear exactly how is that going to happen?

>> i actually disagree. i think you need to stay the course. i think you don't make a side show. you have a job to do and it's in that courtroom and donald trump outside that courtroom is incredibly foolish, although politically it may be beneficial to him. stay the course. pursue your case. you have an indictment. you have fairly easy, simple charges. they're not that complicated. follow the law, get your evidence out, do your job. i would stay the course. i would not move to put him in jail. that creates an entirely different animal, and you don't want that as the prosecution. >> not now. >> as the judge is having to make this decision, trump has been attacking judge merchan. take a listen to what he said yesterday at this rally in wisconsin. >> there's no crime. i have a crooked judge. he's a totally conflicted judge, and i come -- unfortunately it's a 95% or so democrat area. other than that, things are wonderful. >> again, judge merchan is not included in this gag order.

do comments like that have any impact on this case or the proceedings? >> no, no. trump has made it clear from day one what he thinks about the prosecution, all of his prosecutions, what he thinks about the judges, except for judge aileen cannon, i will footnote that, but i respectfully disagree. i don't see how this derails the proceedings. i don't know how this disrupts the proceedings. we've had cases with prosecutors where you've had disruptive defendants that have done something wrong, you put them in the pokey for a little while. there is a little cell in the back. i don't know how little it is. i've never been in it personally. you put them in the pokey, and look, secret service can stand outside of it. there has to be a consequence to your actions, and if the d.a.'s office wasn't interested in it, why bring the motion for contempt in the first place. if you only were going to stay the course and put on your case in chief, why bring the motion in the first place. you're seeking some type of punishment, the punitive part of our punitive system.

>> or is it for the record? >> are you building it so you eventually put him in jail? >> i think another possibility to kind of split the baby here is you could find him in contempt and you could go the incarceratory route, even if it's just for minutes, and it doesn't have to be right now in the moment. you don't have to do it now. you can delay it towards the end. trial or at the end of the trial. >> so you could sentence him after the trial on this specific issue. >> theoretically you move it down the line so it doesn't disrupt this proceeding, so it's not disturbing the flow, so it's not creating a side show right now, but yes, there needs to be some accountability. he needs to be accountable. >> that solution about the kind of delayed punishment but, you know, saying this will be your punishment eventually is something that i heard from a former new york judge who knows judge merchan suggesting exactly that. we'll see how this shakes out. everybody don't go far. much more to discuss on what's happening in the courtroom. we'll be keeping any on all of the happenings, all the action

inside and outside that courthouse where we expect the jury to come into the room soon for witness testimony to resume. also, when we're back in 60 seconds, we're covering breaking news from the campus of ucla this morning, dramatic scenes unfolding as police move in on a protest encampment making arrests. we'll go there live for a quick report after this break. after . e crohn's disease. now, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are looking up, i've got symptom relief. ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ feel significant symptom relief at 4 weeks with skyrizi, including less abdominal pain and fewer bowel movements. skyrizi is the first il-23 inhibitor that can deliver remission and visibly improve damage of the intestinal lining. and the majority of people experienced long-lasting remission at one year. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur.

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steve, what's the situation there this hour? >> reporter: the scene continues to be dramatic, but not because of the people. those have now been cleared out. you are looking at what's left of the encampment. you may be able to look at what's left of the police force. they appear to be leaving. this primary action has been completed. overnight police came in hot and heavy. what's left over is what you see, just sort of a mess of graffit and leftover materials and debris and, frankly, garbage. now, of course, it's cleanup, but before then it was hours long of a struggle, police battling with protesters using flash bangs, pulling apart this encampment essentially piece by piece, very quickly, very swift police action, very decisive because all of a sudden this went from a camp teeming with hundreds of protesters for about a week to absolutely nothing.

police do say it was mostly efficient in meaning that almost no injuries save for the officer that you mentioned. they used nonlethal methods to do that, and they said their biggest concern in making arrests and tearing down this camp was to do it slowly to protect the protesters. i spoke to an officer who said that was absolutely part of the mission. yes, to disable this camp, yes to disassemble this camp but also yes to do it safely for a way for peaceful protesters especially to continue to do that without harming anybody. and you know, to most of my knowledge and to the people who were here, they did that pretty efficiently, ana. >> so steve, you know, the images have been striking, police tearing down those barricades, arresting protesters. what do we know about those who were arrested and some of the tactics police used? >> so we know it's well over 100

people, right? i think last count it was over 130. so a lot of people arrested. this was a dramatic night with dramatic action. the protesters, especially the hardcore set when you got down to it really wanted to fight back. they were not leaving without a fight. there certainly was one. in fact, the last protesters we saw here, as i kind of continue walking through this, they fought back pretty hard, and it got to a situation in which after they pulled down, you know, everything from this encampment including the plywood that served almost as armor, they had to forcefully pull people out sort of one by one by one, and able to do that without injury i think is amazing. suffice to say, it looked like they had long guns, none of that stuff was actual weaponry, okay? that was just what they had to do as far as flash bangs and sort of pellet rifles to get in here and do the job.

>> steve patterson, thank you so much for that reporting. joining us no donnell harvin, the former chief of homeland security and intelligence for the district of columbia, and he oversaw the district's operational intelligence in response to the insurrection at the u.s. capitol on january 6th. donnell, it's great to have you here. if these university presidents were to call you for advice on deescalation, what do you tell them? >> i would tell them not to allow what happened at ucla to happen. every jurisdiction at every college campus has their own reality. they're based in different jurisdictions, laws and statutes. what we saw on ucla is quite different than many of the other demonstrations we've seen. what we saw were protesters with counter protesters, and nobody keeping them apart in the middle. >> that was yesterday. >> that was yesterday. >> and so we've had two days in a row now of these scenes of

confrontations and clashes. yesterday, protesters, counter protesters, today it was police and these protesters. >> correct, and so what happens is that when you allow counter protesters and protesters to commit interpersonal violence, that really ratchets up the violence level, and so when the police finally do come in, they're coing into a situation that's fraught. they don't know who's going to be attacking them. they don't know who to pull apart, and that's why the deliberate measures that the police took to make sure they protected protesters were exactly what i would advise. to let it get to that point i think was a point too far. >> there is this sort of philosophical question that i think a lot of universities are trying to grapple with. that is where is that line between protecting a right to protest, protecting those first amendment free speech rights and maintaining campus safety and preventing harassment and hate speech. >> people send their children to college not to have to deal with harassment, hate speech, and sometimes violence, and each

campus has a different threshold. it's based on whether it's a public or private campus, right? so public institutions have probably a higher threshold because it's public space, and many of these activities are first amendment protected activities. however, you can do first amendment protected activities in private space, so those campuses really have to tackle with how much they're going to allow, certainly taking over buildings, you know, and doing a lot of the things we saw at columbia and some of the other institutions, fordham university, that's not protected by the constitution, and so that's when they askedpolice to come in. the question is are you working with law enforcement in advance? do they know the tactics, techniques, and procedures that are being used on the ground. mayor eric adams talked about that today extensively about some of the agitators. are law enforcement aware they're coming in cold, and that's the difference. >> so communications are key, thank you so much for coming in. this is a conversation to be continued as we stay on top of these protests.

thank you so much, we'll stay on top of what's happening around the country, keeping our eye on ucla as well as some of the other encampments police are moving in to break up. portland university saying they're taking action there as well. when we come back, the latest from a new york courthouse where the jury is back in the room. witness testimony is just resuming in trump's trial with the former lawyer for stormy daniels and karen mcdougal keith davidson now back on the stand. stay with us. k on the stand stay with us deep down, i knew something was wrong. since my fatigue and light-headedness would come and go, i figured it wasn't a big deal. then i saw my doctor and found out i have afib, and that means there's about a 5 times greater risk of stroke. symptoms like irregular heartbeat, heart racing, chest pain, shortness of breath, fatigue, or light- headedness can come and go. but if you have afib, the risk of stroke is always there. if you have one or more symptoms, get checked out.

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breaking news from a manhattan courtroom. the jury has now been seated for another day of witness testimony, and right now keith davidson, former attorney for stormy daniels and karen mcdougal is back on the stand. back with us, yasmin vossoughian, katie phang, jeremy salan and tristan snell. yasmin, we showed the picture there outside the courtroom because we don't have cameras in the courtroom. we don't have audio from the

courtroom. we do have our reporters who are there and in the overflow room giving us real-time reporting with keith davidson back on the stand right now. where's the prosecution starting with him this morning? >> reporter: getting the real play-by-play, and they are continuing their direct, and then of course it's going to turn to the cross by the former president's attorneys. one thing i'm honing in on, and i want to read for you this exchange, they're focusing on some email exchanges in the final days leading up to the election between keith davidson, dylan howard, michael cohen as well, and davidson is saying this, there was difficulty in communications with michael cohen and i and i had lost trust in what he was telling me, and dylan came in as the mediator because there was a question as to why dylan howard was helping mediate, helping organize the payoffs to both karen mcdougal and stormy daniels. steinglass asked why did you lose trust? and keith davidson says he was not telling me the truth. steinglass says about what? and davidson says delays in

funding. if you remember back, ana, to both the indictment, the original indictment from the manhattan d.a. along with some of the testimony that we've heard so far in the last ten days or so, there are allegations that have been made that the former president, right, as the client of michael cohen was asking michael cohen to delay these payments until after the election because maybe they wouldn't have to pay out to stormy daniels and karen mcdougal if he won the election. it seems as if this is kind of what they're trying to hone in on here, the prosecution. however, what i think may work against him here, and i would love for the attorneys on your panel to weigh in on this is chipping away again at michael cohen's credibility. we know this is going to be a big part of the cross examination from todd blanche along with the former president's other attorneys. not only with the cross examination of keith davidson but once michael cohen takes that stand, chipping away at witness credibility, right? why is it keith davidson did not trust michael cohen. he felt as if michael cohen was

not telling him the truth, and then michael cohen will take the stand as the key witness for the prosecution here. right now though, of course, they're homing in on combing through many of those emails that were exchanged days leading up to the november 2016 election, ana. >> thank you. so tristan, what do you think the prosecution is trying to accomplish with davidson's testimony? >> i think the key there is to show that it's the purpose of all of this. i think that's what they're really leading up toward here. why were they doing this? and the delay is a tell. it gives us a hint as to exactly what team trump was going after here. they were trying to delay the payment until after the election because after that it wasn't really relevant, win or lose. the whole point was to keep this out of the public eye before the election. if he lost the election, we don't know what he would have done next.

he might have just decided he wasn't going to run for anything, we don't know. if he won, which he did, then maybe he could just quietly get away with not paying it and maybe there would be some sort of implied threat that he would do something to them if he -- if they continued to try to raise these stories in the media. but the whole point is it's about the fact that it was around the election. that's the key that the prosecution's leading up to. it wasn't just that they were hiding these things from melania. they were hiding these things because of the election, and that's key because it's the campaign finance related part of this that elevates this from a misdemeanor to a felony. >> i want to mention that there is a camera ready for some remarks from the president. unclear exactly what he's going to address in these remarks, but we're watching for that. we're going to bring those remarks to you at home live, so as soon as that happens, we'll take them. in the meantime, let's return to our conversation about what's happening inside this manhattan courtroom right now, and i think, you know, it's important to remember that this is

continued testimony, so the jury is working off of and the prosecution's working off of what keith davidson has already told them in his testimony both on tuesday as well as what he'll be telling them today, and part of what he has said related to timing is that after that access hollywood tape came out, a couple of weeks before the 2016 election that that is when there was suddenly this renewed interest in stormy daniels' story. so these allegations that she was making had been out there for some time, but then interest in her story, quote, reached a crescendo in that moment. jeremy, how important is that detail? >> it's important because it shows, really goes to that motive and intent why it became so important to the former president. >> and the prosecution has to prove intent. >> correct, correct, and they have to prove that there's not just the intent but what was that other crime as they said moments ago, there was a campaign related or election-related crime that was violated. it's not just something was

altered, not just intent to fraud, but this second intent to commit or hide or further another crime. this all ties back to why he was doing it, meaning the former president. and i would say, you know, one of the holes -- and not to jump too much off -- but one of the holes that we have that the defense is going to pick up on, is you hear about assumptions and probability, but no firm still connection that donald trump was paying the bill. it was the boss you heard, but not that donald trump was doing it. it was michael cohen, and if you're taking michael cohen more it's just another avenue. the prosecution is going to be prepared for it. they know already it's the michael cohen credibility show. >> and maybe they're trying to get out in front of this idea that this was all cohen because one of the things they've been talking about with keith davidson who's there is that he's telling them that he suspected trump would have been the one ultimately to make the payments here, to exchange the money. he called it an assumption, but he pointed to how in 2016, michael cohen had told him, quote, my guy referring to trump was on the campaign trail, that

cohen couldn't make decisions in his absence, davidson saying that he figured it meant cohen didn't have the authority to actually spend the money. katie, what more does the prosecution need to get out of davidson? >> well, you have to finish the chronology. there's a reason why it began with karen mcdougal and it's going through the stormy daniels part of the chronology now. i would note that what's been entered into evidence are texts and emails, one of which that we saw into evidence on tuesday was michael cohen later on after this whole thing started this arrangement saying expletive, i'll just pay it or i'll just take care of it. which further buttresses and corroborates the idea it was never supposed to be michael cohen's money in the first place. why would cohen say i'll just take care of it. what you're seeing here regardless of the attacks on the credibility of the witness, which happens all the time, the lies -- there are no lies from

the paper. there's no lies from the account bank statement opening of the account paperwork, right? there's no lies from the texts and the emails and what's interesting, even though keith davidson is saying i was starting to have trust in my michael cohen. cohen was clearly doing the spin and trying to cover for his boss, who he said is traveling and campaigning and i can't get to him, i can't get him to sign. there were all these excuses in transparency that were given by michael cohen, some of which were insufficient to aassuage te other side. the timing ended up being this mad dash to the finish line before election day of 2016. the paperwork corroborates it. even if you don't believe michael cohen, you can believe the corroborating paperwork, the text, the communications that say and buttress his credibility as a witness. >> let's go back to yasmin, what more are we learning from this testimony from keith davidson? >> reporter: they're talking

about the shell company that was established by michael cohen in order to exchange this money, essential consultants, a name he changed amidst this back and forth between keith davidson and michael cohen, dylan howard as well. and then they mention david dennison which is a pseudonym name used by the former president. at one point steinglass asks -- he says who requested such large liquidated damages? and davidson says michael cohen, and david dennison, who is accepting service on behalf of david dennison, aka donald trump, and davidson says essential consultant. so that's something important to keep in mind, ana. as you guys are talking, i want to bring up the timing of all these email exchanges they've been talking about. the initial email they talked about about the beginning of this testimony today was october 26th. that is a mere two weeks when we talk about kind of building this time line leading up to the election. that is a mere two weeks before

voters went to the polls and cast their votes for president back in 2016. so just important to keep that in mind, that all of this was happening, all of these payoffs were happening, these email exchanges between dylan howard, michael cohen, and davidson all happened within two weeks of the november 2016 election. >> so tristan, the texts, the emails, there's video evidence, there are all these other documents. there's this paper trail corroborating evidence. >> there's a tape, there's an audio recording. >> how crucial is that? >> we keep forgetting about the audio recording. the audio recording is really going to be i think -- i think we've intellectualized this case so much because we've been spending so much time on it. i do the same thing. i think we've all spent so much time on it, that we have to remember how it's going to look from the position of a juror, and the jurors are going to hear that tape and most people are not -- i mean, i love this audience. i love all of you watching at

home. not all of america's news junkies. the odds that the people in the jury box have heard that audio recording before is probably pretty low. so i think that we need to remember that that's going to be a key thing. that's a corroborating piece of evidence that trump was actually saying pay her pay them. he wanted to pay in cash. the notion that it was coming from trump, the audio recording really is going to be one of the key pieces of evidence for that. >> and jeremy, what do you think the cross examination of keith davidson is going to look like? >> i think it's going to go back to the assumption that you had no contact, you had no direct communication with donald trump. so you have no direct verifiable. there's still the circumstantial evidence, the credibility issue. i think that michael cohen is not going to be as big of a factor -- sounds like i'm crazy about to say this -- as what people are thinking or expecting him to be because the prosecution's going to come out there and say you can poke holes in all these other witnesses. you can poke holes in david

pecker, you can poke holes in whoever's testifying now. at the end of the day, they have enough in them to support michael cohen, and michael cohen is angry, that's what you do when you're hurt. that's when you do when you're vengeful. someone who's involved in a scheme how do you get those people who are the main kingpins. you got to get the person who was right next to them, the person who was cutting the drugs and selling the drugs to get the guy at the top. you take the wind out of those sails it's this little cross examination of these ancillary witnesses, it's all of them together building that levee. >> conversation to be continued. stay close. the breaking news of the white house where we are learning president biden will speak about the nationwide campus protests. and joining us now is nbc's mike memoli there at the white house. mike, what are you learning? >> this is significant because we've been asking the white house consistently as we've seen these protests across the

country really gaining steam and the police action we've seen in new york and in los angeles today, whether the president might finally weigh in on this. to the extent that the white house has discussed it so far, and we saw this yesterday in the white house briefing, they've been focusing on what they consider to be the unacceptable, anti-semitic rhetoric that has been part of these protests. even some of the president's allies have been looking at these scenes and calling on the president to do more, to really speak out at a moment when what they see as president biden's strongest qualities, his empathy, his willingness to look at both sides of the argument is exactly what this situation needed. we know the political context, of course. donald trump the republican nominee, you're discussing a very different context right now. he was on the campaign trail calling attention to some of these demonstrations pointing a finger at the biden administration. we saw president biden at a closed door fundraiser last night speaking more broadly about what he considered the chaos of the four years in which

donald trump was president, and i think it's also worth in this moment thinking back just almost exactly four years ago at this time. when we saw protests across country in the wake of the murder of george floyd. we saw then candidate joe biden during the pandemic leave his home for one of the first times to visit some of the scenes of where we had seen rioting and looting in his hometown of wilmington. to talk about the need to bridge these divides between law enforcement but also recognize the pain of the african american community. this is a similar moment to look at what the president might be bringing to the table. the white house had just announced yesterday that the president would be speaking next week to give a major address on the concern of anti-semitism rhetoric. white house officials tell me that the president's top priority over the last few weeks has been focused on doing everything he can to do what secretary blinken was just engaged in in the middle east.

try to bring a cease fire into reality. to try to broker that deal between the israeli government and hamas. there have been significant diplomatic efforts, but also to do everything they can to speak to some of the concerns we've seen with these protests to get to increasing the humanitarian aid flow into this region. and so it's still early moments. this speech was not on the schedule when we started this day. the president's scheduled to be traveling to north carolina for an official event focused on lead pipes, but a significant moment as the white house now adding these remarks. we expect to hear the president any moment now. >> mike, please stay close, and as soon as the president speaks on these campus protests, we'll bring you those remarks live. we'll keep a close eye on the witness testimony in trump's hush money trial. keith davidson on the stand. more updates after a very quick break. don't go anywhere. updates afte break. don't go anywhere.

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welcome back, while we keep one eye on the white house where we expect president biden to speak any moment, we're also keeping an eye and an ear inside

that manhattan courtroom where former lawyer for stormy daniels and karen mcdougal, keith davidson is giving us a picture of the communications he had with michael cohen and the reaction when karen mcdougal's story went public. and back with us is yasmin vossoughian, katie phang, jeremy soland and tristan snell. host talking about when the "wall street journal" came out with this bombshell article about the karen mcdougal deal. fill us in. >> reporter: they talked about that moment, that was november 4th, just a couple of days before the election, four days before the election on that, and there was some back and forth conversations on that. they also talked about the agreement made between dylan howard, michael cohen between the shell company, keith davidson, the two women, karen mcdougal, stormy daniels and david dennison, aka donald trump. at one point steinglass, one of the attorneys for the people, says who signed the agreement on behalf of david dennison?

and davidson says karen mcdougal and stormy daniels's attorney says michael cohen esquire. michael cohen signed also on behalf of david dennison, david dennison, aka donald trump, his pseudonym did not sign this agreement. i think this is a really important moment, ana, to hone in on. this is exactly the type of thing in which todd blanche in his cross examination of davidson is going to -- is going to focus, right? because they're going to ask for receipts. they're going to ask for evidence as to why they believe michael cohen was acting on behalf of donald trump, directed by donald trump, as is being alleged in this testimony both today and the day before yesterday as well. and this is one of the things i believe that in the cross examination they're going to hone in on and that the evidence was not there to corroborate that donald trump, aka david

dennison, signed this agreement and was directing michael cohen specifically. >> okay. yasmin, thanks for that nugget of information. let me bring in our legal experts. katie, your initial thoughts. >> like, he didn't sign the contract, so it is not binding, there is no prifity, judge and jury. they're not going to buy that. >> why not? >> it doesn't mean that just because donald trump didn't put his signature on the document that it wasn't going to be enforceable. the money was paid. there is all this corroborating evidence and that's why it is going to be exceptional at closing because that's really what the jurors are going to hear at the end, the weaving together of the entirety of the story, because it is a little chopper block so far, we don't have court on wednesday, we break early at 2:00 on some days, you got to bring it all together and that's what happens in closing. in the meantime, a few things, one, the jurors are taking notes, seriously, they're paying

attention. >> they're paying attention. >> they're listening. exactly. and, two, as they're doing this, i want to emphasize, it is a very small group of conspirators. the ones that are involved are pecker, cohen and trump, right? but then we also hear there is some other kind of side characters like keith davidson, the common denominating, representing, by no consequence, karen mcdougal and stormy daniels, who people that had affairs with donald trump. this is a tight knit group. it is not like there is everybody knows what's going on. everybody has unclean hands in various degrees on the spectrum. i think saying that donald trump doesn't sign it, you're going to say michael cohen went rogue, he did this all by himself, he took out a heloc, a home equity line against his own personal residence so the man who didn't have an affair with the porn star or the playboy bunny was going to sit there and do what? it just doesn't make sense and common sense is not gone by jurors. during jury selection -- i

eventually got there. >> the judge will instruct them in -- when he delivers the jury instructions. he'll say, use your common sense. because you don't have to abandon your common sense at the door to become a jury. you have to make sure you're fair and impartial. that's key. >> jeremy, have you seen any missteps by the prosecution so far? >> i think they have done a very good job. they have been very thorough, already. and they're using all the extra pieces to corroborate michael cohen who is going to be the big show of this and making it that it is not all on his shoulders. even if he's a liar and bad guy and you want him to date your daughter, cousin or your sister, doesn't mean he's lying. he's telling the truth. he doesn't have an agenda other than his anger and frustration. at the time when this happened, his agenda was donald trump's agenda and why because donald trump told him to do so, period. >> quickly, any missteps you've identified at this point? >> not really. i think blanche is about to walk into one, though.

i think for him to make a big deal out of this lack of a signature, in my view, it cuts both ways. it also shows that they were covering it up. they didn't want donald trump's famous well known signature on this document. it would have given away who the heck david dennison is, and if he tried to awkwardly sign david dennison, that would -- so they just figured the safer course of action was for him to not sign it at all. i think it actually cuts the prosecution's way as much as -- a little bit more than the defense side. >> interesting, yasmin, they're talking about a phone call with michael cohen? tell us more. >> reporter: they are. the behind the scenes conversations, guys, is always really fascinating to me, both the night of the election, also following the election after they found out that donald trump had actually won in november of 2016. at one point there was a text message from keith davidson to dylan howard, the "national enquirer," on election night, 2016, saying, what have we done?

and then a text from dylan howard to keith davidson saying, oh, my god, davidson was asked about why he said, oh, my god, he said it was this gallows humor, as he said, a lot of surprise among the broadcasters and others that donald trump was leading in the polls and going on to say we thought about how our activities may have some way assisted the presidential campaign of donald trump. then they talked about, ana, this is fascinating, a phone call between keith davidson and michael cohen, after they found out donald trump had won the election, and the phone call essentially went like this, i'm going to have to leave out some expletives, he said something to the effect of, jesus christ, can you blanking believe i'm not going to washington after everything i've done for that blanking guy. i can't believe i'm not going to washington. i've saved that guy's blank so many times, you don't even know. this is davidson on a phone call that he had with michael cohen,

while he's shopping at a department store after the november 2016 election. again, all circling back to michael cohen, who is going to lead as the star witness for the prosecution. really just fascinating, kind of behind the scenes conversations that were happening with these three individuals that orchestrated this payoff of stormy mcdaniels and karen mcdougal. >> so, jeremy, i'm watching your reaction as she's reading this. what is going through your mind? >> what is going through my mind is actually believe it or not is lloyd dobbler, he holds up his boom box and he's blasting that music, that song, if i'm josh steinglass, i'm holding at what have we done, what have we done. and we did that and we knew we did that, and we knew we were trying to impact the election, and that's what this is all about. it is not mr. cohen, not david pecker, it is donald trump. i'm holding that up. what have we done? we know what we did. we know what we did. we circumvented the law to help the former president, donald

trump, to become president, and in fact we were successful. >> they keep coming back to michael cohen being the central character, the throughline in this entire conspiracy that is alleged here. and "the washington post," though, made a point about the testimony and that is what they elicited from the witnesses, essentially gives the impression that no one likes michael cohen, one witness saying the moral of the story is no one wanted to talk to cohen, davidson comparing him to the excitable dog character in the animated movie "up," constantly distracted by random things, particularly squirrels. tristan, is this clear dislike of cohen problematic for the prosecution's case in. >> it is not ideal. on the other hand, as jeremy was pointing out, look, if you want to get the boss, then you have to go get -- you need to get the people that were close to the boss. and the thing is i don't know that it necessarily matters

whether the jury likes michael cohen. they need to believe him in the confines of this case. and with the corroborating witnesses and evidence that we're going to see. and as katie pointed out, it is, like, look, the emails, the emails, it is hard to find a lie in the emails, like, it is hard to find a lie in the recording, et cetera. it is the corroboration of cohen and it is whether you believe cohen, not whether you like him. >> got to leave it there for today, thank you all so much for being with us. katie phang, tristan snell. that will do it for us today. we're continuing to wait on the president to give remarks from the white house on the campus protests. we'll bring those live to you here on msnbc. also we're keeping an eye on the witness testimony in trump's hush money trial. keith davidson still on the stand. for now, i'm ana cabrera reporting from new york. jose diaz-balart picks up our coverage right after a very quick break. rt picks up our coverage right after a very quick break. e who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. -ugh. -here, i'll take that. woo hoo! ensure max protein, 30 grams protein, 1 gram sugar,

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