minus pets video. they think i was wrong. and that's it. i often say that the c, i a is a big, slow, lumbering bureaucracy. it's not the kind of quick moving on mission, super agency like it is in the movies. sure. it's had its share of successes, even a broken clock is right twice a day as the old saying goes. and at the same time the c i a can be a means plateful and vengeful organization, especially for whistle blowers. and when was of lowers are involved, the cia often will not release its grip until the whistle blower is ruined. i'm john kerry, onto welcome to the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 2 if you're a regular viewer of the show,

you know the stories of thomas drake, the n. s a whistle blower, jeffrey sterling, the c i a was a blower. daniel hale, the drone whistle blower and edward snowden, who worked both for the c i a and n s a. i believe it was on the sea ice torture program. you know that the c i a, comes down on whistle blowers like a ton of bricks. and for those officers who challenge them and who are found guilty and the see eyes preferred court. the eastern district of virginia sentences are getting longer and longer. so what is a potential whistleblower to do when he becomes aware that the agency itself is breaking the law or plotting against a sitting president? let's say, what happens when a potential was of lower, realizes that the deep state is real and it's dangerous pedro or to is a highly decorated former c i a officer in his 18 years and the agency he 18 exceptional performance awards for his work in the middle east, afghanistan, and then the office and the inspect to general working, ironically,

one whistle blower issues. pedros, thanks so much for being with us. thank you so much, john for him and your show today. the pleasure is mine, pedro. your story is different from the stories of most other c i, a whistle, blowers and snowden, jeffrey stirling, and i spoke to the media about human rights and civil rights issues. that was hard certainly. but i think that you did something that was even more difficult. you took on a political issue and you did it from inside the c i a. so let's start at the beginning. this is actually quite a complicated case. can you walk us through it and tell us how this thing developed . there were multiple episodes of instances where i basically spoke truth to power . i was doing my job in disclosing what i recently believe evidenced waste fraud abuse, so forth, particularly significant and specific endangerment, the public safety. i was a manager and awards on the i had very specific guidance from headquarters,

from leadership in that particular division and years of training. by the time i went to have gans dan in 2014, i had 6 years of wars on experiences and having worked for a dozen leaders who became high up officials in the director of operations. so i knew very well what's accepted, what's not accept that. what is right, but it's not right. i was working for a chief of base who turned the base into a social club on steroids. we were making personal moves in times of indirect fire attacks, high threat alerts, and which we weren't shooting not been moving at all unless it was essential movement. we're moving out for yoga classes, staff for food. and in one of those episodes we crossed the idea of head sound and 10 minutes later a rocket impacted. uh, and on top of that, there were other issues, personnel issues where a person now, one officer was favored over another. or you basically had

a need for an employment opportunity problem, right. which happens all the time. as a manager, there was liability for the agency if i saw it and i didn't speak up. so all i did was speak up to the appropriate authorities. the psychologist, the, you know, chief back at the station and the end result of me speaking up was i was sent home of course that and they basically kept this chief a base in place. and they catered all operations and personnel to cater for her social need. and i mean, we were not meeting the military, we were not collecting information for the military or for that matter, helping the military at all. i had a military officer telling me please, we need to meet with you. we haven't seen you in a week and i tell him sir, a very busy and then tell him we're busy cooking and viking, but that was the truth. so that was the 1st episode and that led to a roger reprisals. hm. that basically got me. i got to the point that the

bureaucratic billing from e o i g human resources and everybody was so severe that i literally went on 2 months leave without pay. and i accepted a joint duty assignment where i went to work for the office of inspector general for the intelligence community, ironically. and that got me out of that 1st instance. yeah. but the, but there's much more because it, instead of the problem being result. now i on cover that e o is phenomenally broken beyond repair and not only that, but there potentially violating civil rights laws. yes, uh, on top of that the i jeez, plodding to defraud whistle blowers by failing to investigate a legit reprisals and all sorts of conflicts of interest in the office of general counsel literally being a big bully, trying to deny complaints from getting appropriate legal recourse. you know, on the one hand, this reminds me of what we saw in cost. what 15 years ago, where you had a chief of base who had never been a manager before,

at least not in the director of operations. and, and she had a walk in somebody who volunteered the classified information. the walk in turned out to be a counter intelligence penetration from alta. it happened to be the source is birthday and so she baked him a take told security. hol, let him come around the the metal detector. it's his birthday. after all, nobody paid any attention that he was. he was muttering along who bought under his breath when he got out of the car and then he blew everybody up and killed 7 of our officers. and sometimes the security just goes out the window. and then if you have a whistle blower who raises things issues, it's the whistle blower who, who pays the price. it's, it's like the see i never learns it's lessons even when those lessons are very hard . but this was a cost to scenario. well,

it was basically both of these chief of bases were friends. both of these were women that were not qualified to be there. they were calling qualified for other career choices that both, both of them are hardly certain experiences that we cannot say. and we, we have to acknowledge, but particularly this chief of bass, i was working with, just like the coast of chief of bass, was there to basically make 5 years overseas. exactly where they can switch career plans. exactly, and that's why they kept her out there. so once this started happening, i guess the next logical question is, what were you able to do about it? you, you saw evidence that the c i a was seeking to undermine as a sitting president eventually, but you're not there yet. right? so you see a breakdown in management then what did you do? well, i took shelter in the office of inspector general for the intelligence community and there were other whistle blowers in there who also i would like and shelter me . daniel p meyer is one, and there was a couple others, those that as

a whistle blower as well that and what happened is, you know, i'm in my environment, working inter agency where i had always shined and excelled. here i am working with some fine officers from and a se, a d i a d h s the o d n i ca dre employees. and i was working in the interagency team. and we started doing an evaluation to evaluate the enforcement of ppd 19 presidential policy directive 19 whistleblower protections. so in, in our work we find that all we've got is basically income paper ready paper of a presidential directive that's not being enforced. and not only is and not being enforced, but the reality is you have people trying to undermine that, trying to water it down, diluted to make it of no effect. right. and we stuck to our findings

and we refused to budge into the pressure of senior level managers in the i c i g of trying to water down to finding saying that yeah, we got protections into work. and so eventually what happens is because my attorney had filed the lawsuit against the c. i a under the administrative procedure act. yes. the to compel the c i g to do its job. mind you by law. they had $240.00 days to do a whistle blower investigation. yes, a reprisal investigation. when i 1st reported those facts in april of 2015, the lawsuit was filed in december of 2016. where well past that point, yes, the i c i g decides to send me back to c i a in april of 2017. in the c i g has still not done anything in my efforts to get any information. basically came

back still under investigation, nothing new to report. so the last it was filed, the i see i did claim i had a conflict of interest and somebody back to the c i a, as i go back to the c, i a for what i call round to with the devils i called c i the pit of hell, shakespeare is quote, how is empty and all the doubles are here. because literally it was hell. just the amount of bureaucratic bullying that i was going through for all the different offices. i mean, jobs were being advertised and re advertised and we advertise jobs that i had the language for it. i had the training, i had the, the work history to basically be able to be given that job. they refused to give me the job, and it was just insane. so in this process, eventually what happens is i have to escalate and i have to start using the intelligence community was a board protection act and i went straight to the i g for the i, c i g. this was the in from my g,

wayne g stone and he acknowledged receiving them. i mean, basically tell me as long as you do what you're supposed to do, everything will work out fine. because all this time, i kept everything internally using all those internal processes. because by law, you're supposed to make an authorized disclosure. that's right. blowing the whistle, that's right. to authorize the officials to authorize channels. i did all that well, when i followed up 2 weeks later about my i c w p, a no response. i followed up no response a month later, eventually my attorney and i, we crafted a way to get congress interested. the lawsuit was faxed to congress. new congress meant responded back, wanting some details to were able to get as part of those disclosures to congress. but the c, i officer congressional affairs began to basically threatened me like you're not

supposed to have contact with congress if you're doing, you may be fired basically what they're trying to tell boy, and you know, when i provide it to, uh o, c, a, all the documents i had passed to the i, c i g. they had the audacity to tell me, well, we don't pass all those things to congress. so they actually were whole things from congress or to the state. i have no idea what congress got. but it didn't, it continues to escalate. it does indeed you were speaking with c, i a whistle blower, pedro florida about his experience is blowing the whistle pharmacy. busy from the c i a and the damage that comes with both personally and professionally stay tune. we're going to take a short break and come back and talk about his important new book, which we have right here will be right back the,

[000:00:00;00] the, i'm not sure come on this as they do little show a good this things for me was getting always to me is the non smoker and you might have stored in an empty monday. so stuff with a just didn't show up by a demo print that issue and you're still, or do i have to wake up along with one of my that's not i was and if it's up of course the trailer span that we can partner. so i, this is a good you're good for. 2 much that's what i want to move over here,

but as of now it's particularly in that group. come around quite inflate and mobile phase. crazy. nice. not kind of this is it? absolutely. i'd rather solution issue with the much just really good news that this is the key. we will send you 30 the story and i'm on the wrong. i'm not ready to feel interest worship worse than your plan. you. why am i still not sure what my speeds are still going? yes. sort of the

high acceptance that i'm here to plan with you. whatever you do, you do not watch my new show. search like why watch something that's so different. listed of opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to planes or do they have the state department c i a weapons, bankers, multi $1000000000.00 corporations. choose your facts for you, go ahead, change and whatever you do. don't want my shell stay main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time, but again, you probably don't want to watch it because it might just change the way you think . the welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry. uncle were speaking with former c. i a officer pedro order who despite his years of faithful service, his 8 exceptional performance awards and his high ethical standards was forced out of the agency. why for telling the truth,

pedro good to have you with us. thank you, john. pedro, you have written a very important book entitled, the broken whistle, a deep state run a muck, have it here. tell us why you felt compelled to write this book. and how did, how did you get started? and what was the reaction once you started writing from the c i, i was compelled to write this book because i, as a whistle blower, blew the whistle. and i had to withstand such bureaucratic bowling that eventually what i ended up doing was blowing the whistle on the broken whistle. right. i started escalating, taking this to director mike pal, the dna daniel coats taking you straight to the i g himself trying to make congressional disclosures that went nowhere as if the shredder ate them. and these were 1st hand disclosures the what day ended up doing was sending the officer security as a mafia hit squad to come after me. first they sent

a messenger from the director of security himself. be happy, you have a job. oh boy. so they're threatening, you know, they're threatening me like trying to tell me we can take the job away from you. at that point. i go, well, okay, well, the director security's interested. so i actually wrote back saying, why don't the director secured and i need to discuss these issues because they're extremely important. well then they actually sent a hit man, the personal security chief who threatened to take my job from maine and to take my security class away from me, which would have been the end, not just of your job at the c, i a, but of any career you might have aspired to in washington. exactly. and it was a war of woodson wells and i refused to break down and i, which did my ground. and so they pulled the perfect plot surveillance and all denied me entry of building. i got kicked out of the building, i got put through the personal evaluation board process, which is basically a kangaroo court because it's comprised of officer general counsel and psychologist,

2 offices that were against me me. some of them were trying to claim that i was an insider threat. i wasn't troubled employee for that matter. whatever that board decides, ultimately it's the director of security and his deputy who decide the final outcome. mm hm. so they basically terminated me and fired me. and in this process i had gone back to the i, c, i g with my i, c, w, p, a's, those lawful disclosures. first panic knowledge, me that. and they told me we filed them with this particular form called form 401, which is that infamous form that would come up in the future future. mm hm. so when i finally get around to filing those disclosures, the i see id immediately response for the 1st time and they tell me, well, you're no longer employed so you can no longer file them have a nice day chase. it's incredible. incredible. so this all compelled me because

eventually september 2019 comes around. and now we have the so called ukraine, whistle blower, or making a lawful disclosure using the i c w p, a right using a form that had 2nd hand information here say, and from a night. so he wasn't even a 1st hand witness of what happened. now, and all of a sudden you've got congress interested, you've got the i g pushing forward. you have all this avalanche of help for this individual. mm hm. where's my experience was, they had sent me a form. oh, he's become rich and famous and is now running for congress and you were ruined. so, but basically at that point in time, i blew the whistle publicly through twitter, letting the whole world know they changed the form to weaponized this process to go after trump. and the story is so unbelievable as far as how deep and corrupt this whistle blower redeem is that it compel me to write this book. it i but by the grace of god, i was able to write this in 10 and a half weeks. very intense. uh,

and then months of self edits and then professionally copy, edited me professionally, improve read. so a lot of time and money was invested to make sure we have a high quality product. so my time i submitted it to the c, i pre publication review board. it was tight. well, let me ask you about that. when i 1st wrote my 1st book, i sent it to the c. i is publications review board for clear. it's just like you did. they rejected the entire book. they called the entire book classified and then they actually tried to file a criminal charge against me for it. the bottom line was that it took me 9 months to write my book and then 22 months to get it cleared by the c i. and they ended up taking out a $120.00 pages. that's despite the sweetheart treatment that they gave books written by former c. i a director george tenet, deputy director for operations, jose rodriguez and others who told a, a pro c i a story that you did not tell

a pro c i a story in this book. so what was the experience for you? like once you sent the manuscript to the c i a for clarence the, there's a particular trade craft that i follow when i wrote this book, the one i knew i was gonna have to sell it to the p r b. right? and in that process, i wrote it in a way that made it very clear that i was not a broken employee, that it's their e e o and was a blur process that are broken. yes. and it has to be your implications for national security because as we know, it's known and refused to use this process because he knew that if he would use it like thomas drake convenience and others, they would come after me. so i make a compelling argument that they have to fix these problems in this book. and i wrote it in a way that i did give the i just did credit where they were good at. but i also called out where they were bad and so they're able to use this book as a means to get a message out that, you know, there are some bad apples at the c i. but at the same time,

there are some good people to see. i sure that and last would be i wrote it in a way that made it very obvious that i was going to publish this book. my pro log, the truth must be told. and i made it very clear that the truth needs to get out. and the truth is going to get out. and i end the book with a pro log who will speak for you when they come looking for you. exactly. i and i make a very strong compelling argument in this book. so what happens is they knew that the book was going to be published. and the moment i submitted it on august 1st, i immediately already launched it live on a website. and i also put it available for worldwide distribution with ingram sparks, but not available to be purchased until 19 february of 2024. so the book was available online for people to see it. wow. so a kind of a kind of forced them that was

a risk to expedite the process. yeah. and they turned it around in 10 and a half. which remarkable. what kinds of changes would you like to see at the c? i a, you know, i, i actually talk about this every once in a while in, in speech is at universities and things like that. if there is, there has to be a c, i, a, we all want it to be law abiding. do you believe that the c i a is salvageable and if so, how would you change it to a very complicated the issue. me because there, there are needs for a security establishment for us national security for intelligence collection intelligence operations. but at the same time, how do you balance that with the need for protection of civil liberties and so forth? i mean, the biggest problem we've run into is the political station issue, etc. i me where it's become weaponized against political descent. is it so i was able, i mean we can look at certain case studies look at the erac coalition provisional

authority in 2004. the entire saddam hussein redeem was deemed to be basically not sizable, right? so they disbanded all the security elements, the military, and they started from scratch. yes. another approach in columbia, south america, their f b, i equivalent dash d a s the, but the main domain is that they will a, they were caught weaponized in their powers against political opponents, with the wire tap and so forth. they deem they could not salvage it, so the shut it down to start a new one. so where are the breaking point where we really need is a new type of church committee. me with vast powers to do a, just a big general oversight to look at everything and determine what, what is the best way for it. and we also have a lot of redundancy in the intelligence getting it into a tremendous amount of collection being done, running into each other. yes, d, i a defense, you meant c i a n s a and a say other agencies doing humans?

that's true. so, i mean, in reality, there needs to be an assessment of really what are the intelligence needs? and based on the intelligence need reconfigure the intelligence apparatus to meet those needs. you know, i'll add to that too. um, 1st of all, i think you're exactly right. and i'm going to add something, you cannot have an organization like the c i a that has, however many people, it has 203040000 people. i don't even know anymore. and have it overseen by congressional committees that have a dozen or 2000 employees. right. 20 or 25 people cannot oversee something that is 1000 times its size, right? that's not oversight. and that's why on capitol hill, these, these oversight committees become cheerleaders for the c i rather than overseers. i agree with that 100 percent and that's where the problem has been. the senate select committee of intelligence,

the house permanent select committee of intelligence have become cheerleaders for the intelligence community. and do their bidding. me there has been a lack of oversight. and i've seen cases where the c, i will skew spin and not tell congress all the details or give them part the details. but in a way that makes it look like a bad program is good. they manipulate what congress gets. that's right. and the other thing is they control the clearances for all the staffers. that's exactly right. that's exactly right. peter's how this where people can order your book and where they can learn more about the work that you do stuff. i have a website called broken whistle book, broken with a book dot com. it has the links for amazon, barnes and noble, direct links to ingram sparks for hard covered with dust jacket and paper back. it's available and also an e book. so that will be the best way to get the book, or if not just go to amazon or barnes and noble, and you're not in the sea on anymore. so what are you doing now in the past the

time i am an ordained minister. i have an itinerant travel ministry, and my website pedro is real, ortho dot com pedro as well or to the com has some details about my minister, real credentials. i've done some evangelism training. i've been to tanza now for christ, for all nations. and i've been somewhat sidetracked with the book. i mean, this book has been a full time project for me, how to down, but i look forward to getting back out to ministry work. fantastic. well, thanks again for joining us. appreciate you taking the time to have the conversation. thank you. it's been a pleasure. former c i a director gina hassle home, many of us called bloody gina because of her strong support of the torture programs set in her senate confirmation hearing quote, i would not allow c, i a to undertake activity that is immoral, even if it is technically illegal. on quote, that was a laughable lie. the moment it came out of her mouth, it was under gina has felt that much of the c i is alleged actions against donald

trump to place much if not all of that might have remained a secret, had it not been for paper or he paid for his honesty with his career, but we need more people like him. pedro, thanks again for being with us. thank you. and send you to our viewers for joining us for another episode of the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry onto we'll see you next time. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 the the

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