don't know they're pregnant yet. but president biden is signaling that he think this will help him in november. >> and i think it is an open question whether having that ballot initiative out there on the ballot in november will make it easier for conservatives or people who like donald trump to say i'm going to get rid of this issue as a problem, i'm going to vote for this, i'm going to make abortion legal, up until the point i want to make it legal. that is now off the table and i feel free to vote for the candidate i like now, now that the issue of abortion is not going to be as pressing. thank you so much for joining us. a appreciate it. that is going to do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi, everyone. a blockbuster day of news today. 4:00 in new york. pulling the curtain back on an extraordinary scheme hatched by

a former american president and his fixer and a big time ally of his in the tabloid media. it was a plan crafted to cast then candidate donald trump in a positive light in the all-important tabloids. using stories that were favorable to him and silencing ones that weren't and smearing everybody that got in the way. the witness on the stand today on the hush money trial, details exactly how this scheme worked on a day-to-day basis. david pecker, the former publisher of the "national enquirer" described a relationship with donald trump that dated back to the late 1980s and noted that trump was one the first people to call him and congratulate him when he bought the "national enquirer" back in 1999. so tlir friendship was already long standing by the time donald trump decided so to run for president. the questioning today was the details an the operational

aspects of that explicit agreement between trump, his lawyer michael cohen, and david pecker. and what they did to boost trump's campaign. and pecker said he would look out for trump and act as his eyes and ears and described a practice where he could embellish stories that michael cohen sent over to him about trump's competition. the big moment showcasing how this arrangement functioned. in august of 2015, among these three men, pecker described trump and the former fixer asking him what he and his magazines could do to help the trump campaign. pecker said he told them if he heard anything negative, woe notify cohen right away. and then he would be able to have those stories killed. like everything trump did, this part of the plan was not put into writing. pecker referred to them as just an agreement among friends.

but a huge moment came toward the end of pecker's time on stand when the alleged affair between trump and karen mcdougal was discussed. it was a moment, according to "the new york times," when trump's body language changed. he started moving his head. squinting and pursuing his lips and then crossed his arms over his chest. here is a chunk of that exchange according to our sources in the courtroom. pecker said, quote, prior to this, i was speaking to cohen once a week and once this issue came up, i was speaking to him every day, sometimes multiple times a day. that was in june of 2016. did michael cohen ask you to communicate with him in a particular way. yes said yes, we shouldn't speak over a land line, we should use

signal. i didn't know what it was. it is encrypted so there is no paper trail and no one could listen to our conversation. i still to this day don't know if that is true or not. pecker then added how trump became involved in all of this. because before the mcdougal issue, pecker was just dealing with cohen. pecker said, i was in new jersey at my largest investor american media for a business presentation and they're assistant came in and said donald trump is on the phone for you. so i left to pick up the phone and to speak to mr. trump and he mentioned that he had spoken to michael and told me about -- he told me about karen and he said to me, what do you think? so i said, after dylan howard interviewed her, she claimed that she had an offer from abc, from "dancing with the stars" for her story and she had an offer from a mexican group for $8 million. i said to trump, no, i don't believe there is an offer for

$8 million. i think the story should be purchased, he said to trump. and i believe we should buy it. trump said to me, i don't buy any stories any time you do anything like this, it gets out any way. so i said, i still believe we should take this story off the market. trump said to pecker, let me think about it and i'll have michael cohen call you back in a few days. pecker's revelations weren't the only extraordinary fireworks in court today. the day began a different way. with judge merchan hearing evidence and argument over trump's gag order. the prosecution said that trump has violated the gag order placed on him in this case at least ten times. in his defense of the ex-president trump's attorney todd blanche had a testy exchange from the judge. said you are losing all credible with the court which goes without saying not a good thing to be losing this early in a criminal trial. we're still waiting for the

judge's decision on the gag cord order. it could come out at any time today. that's where we start with our favorite reporter as friends. former top official, legal analyst andrew weissmann is back and legal analyst charles coleman is here and back again after being inside of the courthouse today, "new york times" reporter susan craig. and my friend and colleague, nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard who has been at the courthouse all day. i could see the stars from here. this is really important stuff. so just start telling me what happened. >> well, i mean, it was a day. i just sort of feel like this is a play we've been waiting for and the curtain went up and it was in the detail that david pecker just calmly laid out. he was such a credible witness. just to go through the story with the doorman and how they went back and forth with michael cohen on that issue.

what i found was really just -- i just couldn't believe it, just the explanation of how if michael cohen wants a story on ben carson, he would phone over to the "national enquirer" and say do a story on this on ben carson and then they would embellish details in her own words. >> in their own words. >> and then em billish and a story would appear or ted cruz. they would see somebody maybe ted cruz was gaining traction and michael cohen would phone over to david pecker and say, order up a story on his affairs, that he's not having. and they would embellish a story and it was striking to see at one point, it went on the projector and i was sitting in the overflow room and it was headline after headline. >> here they are on the screen. >> it was headline on one person, and like five or six on

ted cruz. i'm a journalist and i was just shocked and i thought back to yesterday when you were talking to locklan cartwright and he said nobody believed me. and it was just so -- it was wild to hear this story and then to hear that checkbook journalism that was going on and the coordination and the key thing is that i think that i'm guessing that the defense is going to come in and saying this was michael cohen on his own and he's a rogue actor but to have it tied to donald trump with karen mcdougal was a longer relationship and in this case dylan howell was the editor who had gone out to see her and knew she was credible that she had a credible story to tell and just the panic that ensued after that and that went right up to donald trump and the way david pecker told the story was just -- i mean he was calm.

very -- it is interesting he's such a credible narrator for someone who made up so much stuff. he came off as credible. >> the thing for me. because i know the piece of thetory that is so public because similar investigation and because he ends up going to jail is michael cohen. but michael cohen, he comes in and acts free. pecker and trump are friends for decades. trump calls pecker and because he is connected to the "national enquirer." it is a nothing burger compared to the "national enquirer." i started with that mcdoug alex change comes toward the end of the day because that is when pecker in his calm, and everyone described him as credible and calm and likeable. kind of person a jury -- a juror would find as likeable and affable. he's describing being on the phone with trump and trup doesn't say i'm not going to buy

the story because i didn't do it. i'm not going to buy it because when you do it, it gets out anyway. and just the intimacy with trump and the cash and kill. and he's embarrassed of catch and kill. he's proud of checkbook journalism. that is stunning. >> and some things rang true going back to the apprentice years. they had a relationship and it really flourished during the apprenticeship, it was popular and he could put trump on the cover and they would leaktories about the contestants. >> and the ratings. >> and donald trump back then, you talk to anybody at nbc, that guy was obsessed with the ratings of the apprentice and he was leaking stories to the national enquirer about the ratings. it rang so true because i knew all of that from other reporting that i had done. and this is just continued. and then they continued to be friends and then there was an

email that was introduced where donald trump is now running for president and that june in 2015 and he get this is note from michael cohen and an email asking david pecker, editor and owner of the "national enquirer" to sit in the front row and just this gushing email. we couldn't imagine anybody else we would want to have there in essence. >> it seems clear, vaughn, that strategy is to tell the whole story for people that haven't broken with trump. hope hicks comes in and plays prominently and part of the conspiracy to elevate trump by killing bad stories and promoting good ones and smear the opponents. it appears that you could read the papers and well aware of what the attacks seems determined to preempt all of the questions about michael cohen. >> right. and if we take a step back and leave the legal trial aspect of this for a moment, we're talking

about the presumptive nominee and now a friend of donald trump's dating back to the 1980s, they met at mar-a-lago and stayed in touch frequently over the 30 years. now testifying today, publicly, telling the entire country that he sat in a boardroom in trump tower with donald trump on his first presidential run and concocted a plan which donald trump, who was pleased about in his own words, to cover up the salacious stories. that was a plan that a long time friend of his now tells the american public. and then the karen mcdougal story, to watch that testimony play out, again a long time friend articulating that donald trump was aware of this alleged affair and called up a friend to say how do we not let the american electorate know thistory. that is so key. and then to add on to that. is the fact that this statement man, when talking about his finances or about donald trump, referred to him as a

micromanager. he was aware of the checks that came in and he didn't just sign the checks as todd blanche alleged, but he wanted to know where every penny was going and he was cautious is another word that he used. donald trump is the one that runs the trump organization and he's in charge and david pecker testified to that on not only the allegations of the extramarital affairs. >> and talk about hope hicks. >> we know that she was on the phone with michael cohen, there is so much more kind of like the david pecker testimony, we knew there was going to be more coming. but the hope hicks wouldn't be brought forward as a witness by the prosecution. if she didn't have more details to share and that is what awaits us. >> the other piece that is so interesting in terms of educating not just the jury but the public, is how much money they spent to kill these stories.

i mean, a normal national enquirer, and again, i had no idea what the going rate was. but $500, or a thousand bucks, they were dropping $30,000 in these tabloid catch and kill. >> absolutely. and this is the first time that david pecker said that he bought salacious stories for the purpose of never publishing them and they threaten the dino the doorman with a million dollars penalty if he were to reveal his story publicly elsewhere. >> what do you think? >> well, just to vaughn's point, which is i keep on saying this, this is ground zero of fake news. if you -- i know i'm here to give a legal analysis. but if you move away from the legal niceties, i could put this into a legal grid and why it is all relevant and how it is going to play into the summations. but let's focus on the big

picture. the person who ran for and became president, there is one of his best friends on the stand credibly saying without donald trump by the way, truth socialing about how he's awful and can't be believed. there is no adverse comments about him which is fascinating to me, which is on the stand saying that we manufactured bad stories about our opponents, whether it is ted cruz, whether it is hillary clinton, we just came up with fake stories, fake news and then with respect to damaging stories, we killed them. so that was sort of to me the big picture. the other -- to susan's point about credibility. one of the things that you look for in witnesses and you argue at the end of the case is were they guilding the lilly, saying everything that is bad about this and here with david pecker,

saying, you know, donald trump was saying i don't know if you need to pay for this because it is coming out. this is not what you're going to say, he was all in from day one. how do we silence this. and that was a good thing. and the doorman, that story was faked and it was wrong and he could have -- if he was trying to say something that was going to damage donald trump, he would have said, oh, well, you know, we couldn't be sure. there was something there. and so you really -- >> so you're saying there is some tempermental moderation to him and the fact that trump isn't saying david pecker is half of the media mogul, but there is nothing to suggest that what he said and what is damaging to trump in terms of answering whether or not a crime was committed is the catch and kill and is the money and you're saying that he hangs on to every scrap of tread credibility with these nuances. >> absolutely. i do find it fascinating that you have donald trump attacking

the judge, that is allowed. attacking the lead prosecutor, that is allowed. but also, doing things that are not allowed. attacking jurors and witnesses. but it is fascinating to me that david pecker and hope hicks not yet the subject of his ire. so i do think we sort of -- i'm curious as to why, because unless david pecker is going to really change on cross, i think he's going to be in his sights. because he's going to have to start attacking him. and because he -- i know a lot of people thought michael cohen will be the star witness but there is a reason that they're starting with david pecker. he had as the full story. >> you listen to and i want to read some of it. i'm no rachel maddow but i want to read some. i haven't seen a transcript yet. the timeline is important and it was obvious that the

pecker-trump relationship, the catch and kill, and cohen comes in and it is like a chief of staff. but if the catch and kill scheme is the love child, they are pecker and trump. >> before i get to be a lawyer, i'll say that i find it very fascinating that donald trump the candidate whose locked in a courtroom for six weeks has to deal with this new revelation about how the sausage is made, to andrew's point around the fake news. now it is out there about how these manufactured and embellished stories sort of made you this super human candidate for your supporters and i'm curious how that impacted the electorate for donald trump the candidate. as far as donald trump the defendant, i'm sure we'll get to the gag order and that was just an entire mess. but when you're talking about what the prosecution has to do, we already know there have been a myriad of attacks on the

credibility of other witnesses that are yet to come. and so for this to be the first witness that the prosecution puts in front of the jury, what they did was laid the groundwork to say, later on, you actually don't have to believe michael cohen. you may not think he's the most credible witness. you actually don't have to sort of hold stormy daniels in the highest of regard. you may feel like she has ulterior motives, but david pecker who knows donald trump the best have said these things and given us such a framework that is going to be corroborated and it helps them to a very big degree. and the other thing they if well today with pecker's testimony, is that they took away the notion of donald trump being removed. not only in terms of him being a micro manager as a business owner but placing him in conversations very specific about how these things would run. and to act as if you have no

knowledge of this things is untenable. you can't maintain that from front of the jury so that was anective day by the prosecution and in terms of setting themselves up, with the witnesses they know are going to have some degree of challenges on the stand, they did a fantastic job. >> i was just thinking, because there was a discussion at the beginning of the trial about exactly how much of this relationship between david pecker and donald trump would be allowed in. and they just now see how crucial it was that the government was allowed to let in so much of it, to set the full table for exactly what was going on. because there was some discussion it would be what david pecker knew about karen mcdougal and the doorman and i was thinking that today. >> well and because if you have to prove that it is a crime in service of another crime, the scheme is -- the other thing that having worked on campaigns, that he's at trump tower in june of 2016. a normal presidential campaign

in june, you're not catching and kill schemes with the "national enquirer." it was like nails on a chalkboard for me. >> and this was not entered into the record. but when we're talking about what donald trump said in the public versus what donald trump and testimony that david pecker is providing, i went back to my notes from march 25th, 2016, the day that the multiple affairs that ted cruz this had a were unsubstantiated but just -- >> they were five. >> it was damning. >> it said five affairs. scandal. like we found out yesterday there were five. and it is insane. >> and it is what everybody was talking about and ted cruz, if i may, he quickly responded i was in oshkosh wisconsin on the trial and he said they are complete lies. donald trump may be a rat but i have no desire to cop you'll ate

with him. but donald trump on the other hand, this is the beginning of the his entertainment. i have no idea about who whether the cover story is true or not but i have absolutely nothing to do with it. did not know about it and have not as yet read it. i have nothing -- >> it came from his office. >> likewise, i have nothing to do with "the national enquirer" and i do not surround myself with hacks and henchmen and pretend. >> he said he did not want to read this ancient history. >> it is not that long ago. >> i just want to vote for him. >> that is the point now. >> that is the second part of the big picture of this. is you have -- you have ground zero fake news, and you have people who are the victims of it who -- at least unlike mike pence, who said, you know what,

you know where too far is, when you're trying to kill me. but that is a small universe. >> but it is a place that ted cruz. >> and he became a secretary in his cabinet. >> i will read from this and we'll top and it is going to be so fun. don't go anywhere. donald trump and his lawyers telling the jury this week that the candidates' relationship with the news organization was normal. we'll look more closely than we already are at this extraordinary partnership with "the national enquirer." that was nothing normal about it. and still to come for us, while we wait for a decision from the judge on what kind of accountability, if any, trump will face for violating the gag order, that decision could come at any moment. we'll detail the contentious back and forth that happened in court today. we have a little bit between judge merchan and the trump

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visit singlecare.com and start saving today. why do you think they swapped the story? >> back then or now? >> now. >> um, they didn't want to hurt him. >> you think it is because of a personal relationship with the guy who runs ami is friends with donald trump? >> correct. i remember that evening when anderson cooper interviewed mcdougal. i was sitting at dinner with my

ex-wife, with jared kushner, and ivanka trump and the phone rings. and ivanka goes into the kitchen and answers the phone. oh, it is daddy. and what did daddy want to know? whether they were watching karen mcdougal. so he was -- he was very, very concerned about it. >> that will forever be in my trump is daddy phase. this is, again, part of the story we didn't know, right. what we knew is what was public. let me read from the transcripts of how the women and the mission of silences the women took shape. brag's team, you mentioned women in particular, did you raise that or someone else? pecker, in a presidential campaign, i was a person that thought there would be a lot of woman who could come out to try to sell their stories baz trump was well-known as the most

eligible bachelor. and this is why he'll never attack him and the most beautiful women and it was clear based on my past experience that when someone is running for public office, it is very common for these women to call up magazine like the "national enquirer" and try to sell there stoyeries. what about bill and hillary clinton coming up? i was running hillary clinton as an enabler with bill clinton and it was easy to say i keep running those stories. did you believe it would help his campaign. pecker, it was a of mutual benefit. how did mr. trump react to that suggestion that you continues to do that and run those stories. pecker, he was pleased. michael cohen was pleased. you started to allude that to some extent this arrangement you came to at trump tower was mutually beneficial. you could explain what you meant by that. in writing positive stories

about mr. trump and writing negative stores about his opponents it would increase news stand sales for the "national enquirer" so for me that was my benefit and then in publishing the stories it would benefit his campaign. brag team, the portion of the agreement that involved notifying mr. cohen about negativetories about women, what was the objective of that. david pecker, as i did in the past, when i notified michael cohen of a negative story, he would try to vet it himself to see if it is true or not and then go to the individual publication to make sure it wasn't getting published an getting killed. brag team, prior to that meeting have you ever purchased atory to the to print it? pecker, no. brag team. and how did that part of it, not publishing the stories help you? pecker, it didn't. crazy. >> fake fuse. it is fake news. this is your point. nothing is new.

it is all projection. what he was doing. tu unbelievable. now this is going to go to election fraud, which is the, as you said, this is the false business records, you have to prove that it was intended to aid some other -- to cover up or further another crime. so this is going to be the tate election crimes, at which the d.a. today in court said is the main way they're going to argue that this is a felony. and so all of this goes to election fraud. and i have to say, this is where, again, as a citizen, and thus as a lawyer arguing a case, i mean, you can't hear this and think this is great. this is -- this is -- at a basic level, this is fraud. >> well, and the other thing is, what would -- you could maybe turn to is it was mutually beneficial and the part that was ruled out was the part that was krirm criminal wasn't.

>> we've been talking about the content and legally i wanted for a moment to zone in and discuss the context. this is a trial and they're playing to a jury and this is the first witness that they're hearing from, why am i saying this. because in order to get to the actual illegal part, there is a lot that has to be laid out. you have to get to the documents and corroborate that. that is not particularly interesting and it is not gripping if you're the jury. so what you have to do as prosecution early on, is that you have to paint a picture that they could follow by the time you goodet to the point that you're introducing the documents it maybes sense to them. and they know where to place it. beyond just the content being very interesting and salacious, what they did today and what they're doing with all of this is grabbing the jury in and painting a very clear picture chronologically about, number one, how this relationship with david pecker and donald trump existed and number two how the other characters who they will

hear from or hear about played a role down the line. as a prosecutor, you're selling a story to your jury and they did that by laying the foundation with david pecker today. >> how does pecker get limited immunity from department of justice and cohen is like a middle manager in the scheme go to jail? >> yeah, some of that is when someone comes in, so if you are just starting out and in a case and so let's take i worked on enron, you have very little to go on and you're trying to find a toe hold. ideally, you find -- you're trying to find the lowest level person and if you're going to give someone immunity, you want it to be the lowest level person and then you build up. but with david pecker and michael cohen, where you might say, they're relatively the same, you might say maybe david pecker is a little more guilty,

maybe michael cohen is a little less, but what do i have to prove a crime and first person to come in may get the better deal. >> but how does pecker evade criminal scrutiny for election interference, with the immunity deal. >> yeah, with an immunity deal. >> and will he face prosecution? >> well, this is like -- this is a great question. because the president didn't. so, you know, if you're in a good faith doj that is operating under all norms, then you would say yes, you would -- you could have the proof, you could prosecute all three including the president. >> but i'm not going to look at it that way because this is bill barr's doj. and i want to go back to the transcript. i think he got immune because he ted trump was well-known as the most eligible bachelor and dated

the most beautiful women. that stinks. >> yeah, except we need to know -- you need to know at the time that this is done, this is southern district of new york, and they were building a case. and he's representing -- >> against who? >> well against michael cohen. and you could tell they were trying to build a case -- >> i guess i'm asking, could a twist of fate have given michael cohen limited immunity and pecker jail time? >> absolutely. >> but it is so interesting in hindsight. the relationship is deeper and longer with pecky and the killing of the stories that doesn't benefit pecker and cohen went to jail. >> and so this is where bromo witz represents david pecker and he's a good, well-known defense lawyer. about as good as you could get on the defense side. and sometimes you have something going, you know what, this is your time to go in and get immunity. i'm going to give a proffer to

them as to what you are going to say, and if they think that it is truthful, then this is the moment. because you know what, this is your window to come in. because they might be thinking, michael cohen might come in. so, and you're deal -- you're getting the michael cohen deal, meaning you'll be prosecuted. that happens a lot. the thing that is unusual here is you don't like to give immunity, what is called top down. and this is -- >> so you would think that pecker is above cohen in this scheme? >> at the very least, they both have a lot of culpability. what i say about michael cohen is he may have slootly less culpability in this scheme, but he also has a broad range of criminality that he's admitted. so you have to take that into account. but i think this is -- prosecutors don't get to know 100% what is out in the world,

they are sort of beholden to who is coming in and what are their options at the time. >> it is fascinating, i have to sfeek sneak in a break and we're going to broaden this out and talk to someone on the front lines of watching donald trump with the media and plus as a candidate and as president. don't go anywhere today. we'll all be right back.

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and why the prosecution are going to be relying on him. he could really set the table here. going back to that meeting at trump tower in august of 2015, two months after donald trump goes down the escalator with where they had this meeting, it is michael cohen and high school trump and it is david pecker and where pecker said he'll be the eyes and ears of the campaign. >> lacklan cartwright. the details that david pecker's former editor told us about, that his boss could share with the jury as he's done today. it is a relationship that pecker described as mutually beneficial instead of the case of the stories that were killed an it is a relationship that grew over time into in person visits every month after trump announced his candidacy for president. pecker details the secret plan to catch and kill any negative

stories about trump and women. something he would run by michael cohen as well as the quote embellished negative story that's ron has been talking about, about trump's political rivals. pecker said, they pleased both trump and cohen and pecker admitted they benefited the campaign, explicitly. joining our conversation, npr media conversation, david holcomb is here. and david, you're thoughts about what we're learning for the first time from david pecker's testimony? >> it is pretty stark. to think about practices that were in affect at the national enquirer. if you stopped someone on the street and said is the gossip tabloid going be an avatar or have secret agendas made for the stories they public or don't publish. and people thought gosh, there might be some give and take maybe there is some favoritism. but what we've learned about

here is that this tabloid, that is consumed by millions of people, often on check out stands and often at home, often these days online, shared on social media, was picking and killing what stories to publish on the basis of what would help a friend ofity publisher david pecker, a friend by the name of donald trump and according to pecker's own testimony, what might embarrass his presidential came in that 2016 cycle. pecker was on board in 2016 walking through stories with michael cohen about what things they should pick to go after, hillary clinton and he had previous thought about what kind of stories earlier in the cycle might embarrass trump's republican riles, ted cruz and marco rubio and which stories could we keep from seeing light of day. this is not even a tabloid gossip impulse. this is a partisan or propaganda

arm of the trump campaign. >> what is extraordinary, i take your point about a baseline understanding of the national enquirer. but what is amazing about pecker's testimony is all of things that the national enquirer did for the first time to benefit the trump campaign. and among those, they paid sums that they've never paid before. a typical source payment would be $250 and if it is a celebrity, up to $10,000 and i mad that decision because of that potential embarrassment it would bring to the campaign and trump. and the ome thing they had never done before is pay the sums for things that didn't benefit them for stories killed so history was made in this relationship with "the national enquirer" and the trump campaign. >> it is an inversion of everything that you think motivated a tabloid publisher. you're paying a doorman money because he's peddling a story that he's brought to you, i think on the tip line as locklan

cartwright has remembered it, but nonetheless, he's brought to you saying that trump had impregnated a maid at trump tower and they don't use this to see how could this sell zillions of copies and he said he was subject number one for readership and he would dwarf anything else in terms of the interest of their audience and we're going to take this out of circulation until after the election because that is going to serve the interests of the trump campaign and trump the politician. not about hey i was thinking about what it would mean for his marriage. not about gosh, his son barron is still young. none of that comes up here. this is all about working with somebody who is working hand and glove on came matters, michael cohen is putting out kind of eruptions that have beset

politics sense just after the american revolution but are playing out in social media and in front of our eyes on cable news and everywhere else. >> and even eight years ago, when year talking about national enquirer and what michael cohen and donald trump saw in terms of the ability and the reach, you could take us back to that moment there and what michael cohen, i don't think marco rubio or ted cruz would have thought that is what they were pitching at the time david pecker aside, what did they offer donald trump and michael cohen? >> well it seems to me if i understand your question correctly, that the idea is what role that the "national enquirer" could place and you think it is a dinosaur but in reality, even though it is being in some ways -- even though it is being superceded by things online, what the national enquirer is able to do is serve as a me mention, a define of the

news cycle and ginning things up about hillary clinton enabled bill clinton's continual sexual dalliances and his bad behavior, to keep hillary in the headlines, to raise questions about her health and her competence and bill clinton's character and deflecting from questions about donald trump himself. this is what you would now see online social media warriors doing for campaigns and often in their employee and in the top levels of the inner world of trump's world and ensuring that main street press outlets are following its lead about what the story they're pursuing and what stories they might not know about as a result of national enquirer not pursuing them. >> what is interesting and you mentioned this in the break. david pecker's testimony doesn't speak to anything that we thought might have been hidden.

grave humiliation about embarrassing melania or ivanka or the other daughter, tiffany or barron. like the people that knew him the best do not give voice to anything that we don't see from the outside. there is zero shame, zero embarrassment and zero regret. >> and i thought it was interesting, what david pecker said, he called him an eligible bachelor. he was married. >> he's been married three different times. >> there was no mention about barron. there was about donald trump an the campaign. >> if you think about it, think back to just yesterday, the opening statements where at least for a moment his attorney tried to humanize him noting that he was a husband and a father and then the narrative that contrasts with the testimony from someone who knows him very, very well who never makes mention of his kids or how

embarrassed he would have been respect to his wife should this infidelity become public the way that it did. it undercuts that even small attempt to humanize donald trump, which wasn't the right strategy, let me be clear. but nonetheless, it takes it away. >> david, thank you for joining us. we'll continue to call on you. i'll give everyone a last comment. i have to sneak in a quick break before we do that. don't go anywhere. reak before we do that. don't go anywhere. ok y'all we got ten orders coming in.. big orders! starting a business is never easy, but starting it eight months pregnant.. that's a different story.

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you could see us during the break. all the good stuff. i want to read one more piece from the transpayment. in 2015, when trump announced his candidacy, did your increase increase -- contact increase or decrease with cohen? decker, increase. an then he gets to his testimony, it's multiple times a day. thhe campaign. that is in the record. >> we're going the see a lot more detail on that tomorrow, because the examination continues, and we'll be talking about karen mcdougal. it was a longer, incredible relationship and we'll be hearing a lot more tomorrow -- i'm sorry, thursday. >> we're dark tomorrow. >> so thursday when court picks up. >> tomorrow, do we expect any rulings on the gag order that would happen today? >> no. >> it's possible that the judge

is waiting because there was often alleged violation -- an alleged violation yesterday, so the judge might be waiting for that piece to come before him. it doesn't need to, but he might, since there was sort of, you know, it's like you can't catch up. >> what do you make of who might be adjusting their strategy with the dark day tomorrow? ahead of -- i don't mean dark like sad, i mean david pecker doesn't take the stand again until thursday. >> i mean, not the state. it's hard to imagine that the state is -- it's hard to think -- i mean, this is just the beginning. you know, i just think this is a hard witness to attack. you know, we were just talking about what do you do on cross? like an easy cross of this is, well, you don't know about the false business records themselves, you didn't sign them, you're not in the trump

organization. >> you just killed the story because -- >> nicolle, this is where a smart jury is good for the state, but you just say, but you weren't a witness to that. so you just point the jury to like the limits oh of what he has to say. sometimes that's all you can do on the defense side. >> what do you make of that's happening now that we can't see behind the scenes? >> i'm going back to this morning and the gag order hearing. that was the most explosive that is. for as accomplished an attorney tom blanchard is, i don't understand the argument he made. to have a judge tell you that you are losing credibility this early in a trial is really, really dangerous ground to operate on. if anything, i would have expected him to walk in there with a plan presented and ready that was going to somehow allow the judge to make a decision that perhaps didn't ding his client on everything.

but also allows his client to move forward while preserving the integrity of these proceedings, and he didn't. and that's something that i don't necessarily know is going to be easy to overlook going forward, because donald trump is not changing who he is. so you can expect we'll have this issue again, and it's going to get very costly for donald trump or difficult for todd blanch, if not both. >> everything that trump touches turns to kaka. >> on the political end of that, part of this that i try to remind myself that i'm still covering the presumptive nominee for 2024, part of this is that donald trump, outside of this criminal trial, hasn't faced political repercussions for those efforts, these alleged efforts to silence these stories from coming out in 2016. when we were talking to david about what the "national enquirer" offered him in 2016, it was for another outlet to put out, essentially a generator of salacious stories about his

opponents. fast forward to eight years, when i talk about no political repercussions, donald trump just reposted on his social media account now, random accounts with no name behind him. when he was running behind ron desantis, some person tweeted out ron desantis in high school with texts suggesting that he was grooming high school girls. >> and the campaign had to deal with it. >> and there was no repercussions for donald trump, so he's not even relying on the "national enquirer" and his friend, david pecker. he's just doing this himself. again, no political repercussions. >> fascinating. andrew, charles, sue zan, thank you so much for being here the whole hour. up next for us, more on this gag order that we have been talking about and the judge blasting trump's defense team as charles is describing. that story and more after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ter a quick break. don't go anywhere. can't filter out the real you. so go ahead, live unfiltered with the one and only sotyktu,

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she gets her news from "the new york times," google, and cnn. she said two things that really stuck out, one, "i don't really have an opinion of trump," and "no one is above the law." i'm not so sure about juror number two. >> welcome to earth two where that guy, his name's jesse, thinks neither of those things are possible from any human living on earth. it's now 5:00 in new york. hi, everybody. it turns out that was a critical legal turning point, part of a chain reaction of the cruelty and venom and recklessness that brought us to today. crash course in actions and consequences for a man who so doggedly has avoided them his entire life. today's first order of business in court in the criminal election interference and hush money trial was time to set aside to consider whether trump violated his gag order when it was imposed before he shared a

quote on social media from that guy, from fox news, insisting certain jurors from undercover liberal activists. during that hearing today, our nbc news colleagues, they're in the courtroom, reported that the judge went as far as to raise his voice in frustration during his questioning of lawyers for donald trump, unless or unable to defend his position that the trump post in question were political in nature and outside the scope of the gag order all together. attorney todd blanch got an ear al from the judge to the effect of -- >> prosecutors meanwhile, while making the case that there's no straight-faced argument that the post relates to anything other than the trial, they brought up the comment by that guy, jesse waters, pointing out that juror number two asked to be excused

the day after that rant, not 12 hours after. it was in their words precisely what the gag order was intended to prevent. bragg's team suggested that they are not yet seeking incarceration as a penalty for trump, although they added this, the defendant seems to be angling for that. indeed, after the gag order hearing was through, like right when it ended, the judge said he was reserve a decision on the matter. trump was right back on his social media platform, attacking the judge, likening the proceedings to a kangaroo court. bragg's team noted "trump knows what he's doing." before court adjourned today, the focus was on david pecker, former ceo of american media, which owns the "national enquirer." as we mentioned earlier in the broad cast, he's an alleged co-conspirator. the other edge of that mutually beneficial relationship with donald trump, a lucrative one,

to not publish or publish. pecker was right there at the beginning of trump's plan to keep his relationship with stormy daniels a secret, hidden from the american people ahead of the election. of course, the cover-up failed on the long road that led us to this day, with the disgraced ex-president forced to sit and listen to pecker testify about it in front of a jury that's correct potentially decide he's guilty. as we said, action, consequences. it's where we start the hour. back this hour with another great table, msnbc legal correspondent lisa ruben, she was in the courthouse for us today. and the host of the podcast tony deutsche is here. nbc's von hilliard was not permitted to leave. lisa, take me inside the day. >> nicolle, i think one of the things that was most stunning about the gag order argument is the way that trump not only quoted jesse waters, but then fed jesse waters.

so one of the posts is that quote you just played, trump wrote, they're catching undercover liberal activists just to get on the jury. the just to get on the jury comment, that wasn't anything that jesse wattors said until 8:00 that evening, the tweet was at 5:00 p.m. that afternoon. it fully illustrates the feedback mechanism between trump and conservative media. watters says something, and trump attributes it back to jesse, and what does he do three hours later? he repeats the whole thing verbatim. so i thought what was really interesting about it was that they were showing how these actions have consequences, by how they get amplified and perverted. he takes an idea, he turns it into his own, it goes right back out into that same ecosystem to

endanger the people who are participating in this process. >> it's important to point out too, this was the juror, juror number two that the judge said would have been a good juror. there is a known consequence to the actions of jesse watters and donald trump. >> there is, and the d.a. mentioned that a number of these posts we're talking about are not about the jury, they're about michael cohen or stormy daniels. but in fact, the entire process, to the extent that they chill participation in the administration of justice, they threaten the integrity of these proceedings, that impacts all of us. and maybe most especially the jurors who are already afraid of what this means for them, because you have seen one excuse herself. other potential jurors break down and say, i can't do this. another juror yesterday asking for a side bar because of the pressure that person was increasingly feeling. >> trump has often covered like

a amoeba that can't control himself. there was a suggestion from the prosecutor that he's doing it on purpose. >> there's an element of that. it's a both and. >> he can't control himself? >> i would say he is a person who is inherently impulsive, yet there's some element of strategy there. when i think how he's comported himself in the courtroom when i've seen him, when he walks down the aisle, that is absolutely self-directed, very clear to pause, look down the aisle of everybody assembled. yet this is also a person who is closing their eyes. whether they're doing that to prevent themselves av a temper tantrum, whether he genuinely is tired is not entirely clear. so it's a both and situation. >> donnie, we'll deal with the pecker of it all. >> can i just say yuck? >> which part? >> all of it. you get caught up in the

details. what a sleazy, greasy, low-life universe this is. whether you start with trump and you go to pecker and to jesse watters, it's just yuck. i don't think people tuning in are going to take away every one of these nuances. but there is such a yuck factor that if you forgot about donald trump is the net, net, net of this. i think there's an exhaustion, plus yuck that people just go, oh, do i want more of this? and i think -- a lot of people minimize this trial because it is not election interference, it is not insurrection, it's not classified documents. it is a reminder of yuck. >> to your point, there also may be people that there's no camera in the courtroom, there's no audio. but no one is with him. he's got three -- two living -- he's got a wife, ex-wife, kids,

none of them are there. >> i don't know if i agree -- you give him too much credit that he's walking down the aisle. i think he's just one of these guys that is just in the moment, this is his own universe, there's nobody that exists beyond him, and he's just sleeping, talking, he's this, passing gas, whatever he's doing. i don't think that there's this great master internal puppeteer going on. i think he's lost that. >> we want to amplify this, he's like lying at the rate of the rest of us are breathing. >> right. let's stop. i'm sure it's frustrating for a criminal defendant to -- >> get caught? >> to have to -- [ laughter ] -- this person is contending that they are innocent, they should have never been charged in the first place. this case is a hoax, that's the donald trump position here. and yet at the same time, just in the last ten minutes, he put out a new social media post, which we're having the conversation about a trial

whether donald trump has lied or not. can i just read the first line? >> yeah. >> thousands of people were turned away from the courthouse by police, literally blocks from the tiny side door from where i enter and leave. it's an armed camp to read people away. i read that because i was down there, lisa was down there. that is the furthest thing from the truth. that's a lie. it's not real life. there's less than ten people there to support donald trump today. and anybody across the country, you can fly to laguardia, jfk, or newark, take the train in, 100 center street, and you can walk on the sidewalk where the front door of that courthouse is. there are not thousands of pro-trump demonstrators that are there. but his 6.6 million followers on trump true social will be saying that. so donald trump wants to argue via his lawyer inside that he's not a liar, but he's putting up posts that are not even comprehensible.

>> i guess it's laughable. there's nothing laughable about the criminal justice system, but as a criminal defendant, he has a presumption of innocence, but what's laughable is that the sliming and the smearing of the process, where usually there's a moment where everything gets real. he's immune to all of that. there's no respect for the judge, no respect for the jurors. i wonder if anything has the standing with him to say this isn't going to help you. >> i don't think that is the campaign operation around him. donald trump largely speaks for himself now. there were efforts in his 2016 campaign and while in the white house to try to moderate him or try to reason with him. and yet, what you saw was in 2016, efforts to try to reach main stream news organizations, nbc news, "new york times," despite him being frustrated by them, he kept on with fake tres and worked to a great extent. americans trust in the main stream news organization that is

corroded. there was people he told them not to believe in the elections. folks were there in the white house. that didn't work. donald trump, though, as a result, has effective liquor loaded trust in our elections. now with the justice system, it's effect chully working now. donald trump has largely not seen for himself the repercussions, and for him, his best effort is to erode trust in the justice system. and that means saying i should not be inside this courthouse. >> but i guess to your point, it's another sign of him high on his own supply. because in the real world, he and his party have lost every election except '16, and he's now facing 88 felony counts. >> yeah. i want to stop on one word you said and that's "lose." donald trump's brand has always been winning. we're not getting to the end of the trial. i think the result of this trial has huge implications.

huge implications. i think if he wins, it just kind of shows his larger than life, i am a winner, i've always been a winner. regardless of what this trial is, he comes out a loser, against the losing streak of the republicans and every way you put an "l" against their name, i don't think he recovers from this. i think the win/loss here is a really big thing. he's not going to go to jail, it's just the badge that he comes out with a "l" on his lapel. >> he also makes everybody else think about a loser. i kept thinking about ted cruz, because in david pecker's testimony, he confessed that not only did he embellish headlines, but he made up a photo of cruz's father with lee harvey oswald by mashing up two photos together. when we look back, thanks to von, at what ted cruz had to say at the time, he was excoriating

about the "national enquirer" and the lies they were telling ant him. trump, similarly, divorced himself from it and said that has nothing to do with me, that's the "national enquirer." yesterday today, confronted with this testimony, what did ted cruz have to say? that's ancient history. i have no interest in revisiting it. >> it is an interesting divorce from reality. i mean, this was testimony -- let's deal with david pecker now. i mean, what david pecker -- and the idea that like trump -- trump has no appreciation for irony. because you describe what jesse watters has been charged with -- >> these characters -- >> i missed his rise, but i guess he's been around there for a long time. >> he was the one that did the lovely thing, mimicking chinese people downtown where he was imitating them. this was his rise to fox, he was interviewing kind of making fun of people who couldn't speak english very well and mocking

them. this was his big rise. >> like we enjoy the right to say what we want to say, we have a relationship with our viewers. i assume he enjoys the rights he has to say what he wants. but the problem, i think, that trump has is that it is his practices with the media that aligns himself with trump. the whole pecker testimony is about a campaign role, not a friendship with donald trump. it's about an explicit decision to take a role in the trump campaign, and what pecker put on the record today was this -- at some point, bragg's team asked him, in 2015 when trump announced his candidacy, did your frequency with mr. cohen increase or decrease? pecker, increase. how often were you in touch with michael cohen after trump announced his candidacy? pecker, maybe daily. one of the most interesting things that happens today with

pecker is what's been public facing trump, cohen, stormy, macdougal. what happened today was trump, pecker, and everybody else. i mean, the chart of the hush money election interference, corporate criminal enterprise totally changed. >> and you really see the impact of pecker and the "national enquirer" and how it plays into kind of the center hub of media, politics, consumerism, and the fact that he's -- obviously, there's legal decisions, but it's a shame. because there was a real, real -- he was -- he was more of a fiction than michael cohen in certain ways. >> and more influential. what dawned on me, i wondered from the outside, pomeranz's book, you wonder what bragg did with the time between the first team that looks at the facts and the charging of trump. clearly what they did, with 22 meetings with michael cohen, they corroborated everything he

knew. because they were so focused. they were laser focused this their pecker questioning. >> i'm going to get back to that. one of the things they did at the beginning of david pecker's testimony was asked him about his phone numbers. do you remember the phone number of your office number in manhattan, in florida? they're going to show david pecker, i imagine a whole bunch of phone logs to corroborate his own testimony about the calls he had with michael cohen and donald trump. again, the day ended with him recalling a call he had not with cohen but with trump after they did the investigation of karen mcdougal's story after dylan howard flue to california to interview macdougal. it was david pecker who told donald trump, i think we should buy this. that's where we stopped. >> and donald trump says -- what does he say? he says, i think sometimes those stories come out anyway. you have this collision with donald trump he wants to silence

that information about himself, and donald trump, the tightwad. >> right. i would be your eyes and ears, that's david pecker telling donald trump that. and about the arrangement, he said that pecker responded -- or trump responded that he was pleased. you know, this is a clearly campaign motive here that was laid out by david pecker, talking about the purchasing of stories for the purposes of potentially releasing them after the election. if you are open to releasing these stories after the election, then your concern is not about your wife or your children one day finding it out. it is about making it through november of 2016, and a potential to win the presidency. >> as far as his defense about i was protecting my family, it was known. in new york, donald trump was never discrete about anything. it was always out and about. that's what makes it an inside joke that understand trump and the social scene. donald trump was never operating very low key, if you will. >> it was a joke to david pecker, too. one of the things that made me

laugh out loud today is when he described donald trump as one of the world's eligible bachelor without any sense of irony that he was married. >> and he corrects himself. he says, he was the most eligible bachelor. >> and he liked the most beautiful women. >> von hilliard, who did double duty, thank you so much for being here. lisa, you've been extraordinary. when we come back, how the trump trial is refreshing people's memories of one of the most disastrous moments in american political life. certainly of the 2016 trump campaign. the release of the "access hollywood" tape that is reviving a conversation about the ex-president's disdain for women and their parts. plus, while trump is in the courtroom, joe biden is out on the campaign trail, talking about the fight for women and their reproductive rights in a battleground state with one of the strictest abortion bans on the books in the country.

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don't wait! call, click or visit an xfinity store today. good evening. as we come on the air tonight, a firestorm is raging in the republican party and beyond over comments about women donald trump was heard saying in that 11-year-old tape that just came to light. >> we have got to start with the breaking political news that took place overnight. a very rare apology from donald trump. the candidate forced to say he's sorry after a tape from 2005 where he said vulgar comments about women. >> anyone who knows me knows these words don't reflect who i am.

>> hours away from the blockbuster debate rematch, and donald trump not backing down. after this explosive video. republicans calling on trump to quit the race. will the gop abandon its own nominee? >> so at the time, it really was a political bombshell. the rnc, for a while, suspended their support of the republican nominee, donald trump. and he was all but written off as a certain loser. we know what happened next, he won. and donald trump's first criminal trial is bringing it all back, and trying to bring a jury now back to that moment in time, and the real political jam trump was in because of the release of the "access hollywood" tape. the content of that tape and trump's reaction to it are central to proving the ex-president's motives to orchestrate hush money payments that interfered in the election to stormy daniels. the tape and the fallout might

be key to proving trump's criminal conduct in this trial, a police in "the atlantic" points out what its use in this case means for the american voter. >> joining us conversation, msnbc political analyst cornell belcher is here. and also joining us, voters against trump, sarah is back. donny is here, as well. sarah, we're going to show you some of your amazing ads. but first, this question on what the muck of the trial brings back into the news cycles and public view for donald trump politically.

>> yeah. so i've been doing focus groups recently on the issue of abortion with women, and one of the things that's been interesting is that a lot of times when new issues really come to prominence or salience, it's because of a combination of things. i think the combination of the abortion repeal in arizona, they implemented this 18 sort of '64 law that completely bans abortion, even in the cases of rape and incest, along with the stormy daniels trial, which reminds people of just how gross trump is to women. the women in these groups were incredibly vocal about just sort of -- i hadn't heard it in a long time. a lot of this stuff is baked in with so many voters. trump's sort of -- the misogyny, the gross way he talks about women. but it's increased in salience because of these issues coming together right now. so the women in these groups,

especially the groups that were in arizona were talking a lot about this case and how they can't believe that he's even allowed to run again. these were swing voters. and just how despicable his behavior is to women. it was one of the things really keeping them from any interest in going back to voting for him, even though they tended to be sort of center right independents and soft gop voters. >> sarah, that's the $64 million question. whether now -- he also was known to sexualize his own daughter. he made comments about how she was so hot, he would date her if she wasn't his own daughter. they were chalked up. but now that there is a massive policy revolution in this country for the first time in 50 years, there isn't a right to make decisions about your own body, you're saying that these comments are viewed differently. >> yeah. look, donald trump has always benefited enormously from his

celebrity, right? people just don't hold the same sort of moral standards to him, in part because he was never a moral guy. and look, there's no doubt that for some voters, and i hear this all the time from men, but also from women, where there's also a part of the irreverence of donald trump and baked into that is the way he treats women and something that often times republicans like about him. there's a big part of his constituency that is this maga, bro, bar stool sports combination in a way that the republican party that you and i know 10, 15 years ago, you know, this kind of thing wouldn't fly. but i do think that it's the fact that there is now a policy issue that has an impact on

women's lives, that has changed the way that women view how donald trump thinks about them, because this is just -- this wasn't the case in 2016, right? and now, these voters don't trust him on women's issues. they don't trust him to take women seriously. that was coming through loud and clear from the women in these focus groups. one of whom was a trump voting focus group. they were all leaning, interestingly not so much towards biden but to kennedy because of trump's stance on abortion and the way he viewed women. >> fascinating. cornell, let me play some of the voters that sarah is talking about. these are testimonials from female republicans. >> he's arrogant and egotistical, and shows utter disdain towards women and those of other races. he intimidates, cheats, he lies and steals. >> the plans that donald trump

has laid out shows me that we would be at risk if he was in the white house. women are at risk. >> he does not show the love of jesus in his treatment of people when he talks down to them, when he mistreats them. with the number of cases that women have fought against. >> as an individual and a woman with integrity, i do not like the way he's spoken about women, especially women of power. >> cornell, sometimes it's -- i feel exasperated how long it takes for the trump story to sort of penetrate the consciousness, but it seems among republican women, maybe it finally has. >> well, we'll see, right? nicolle, i want to be hopeful, but i've seen over the past week a lot of people who have come out and said terrible things about donald trump, one being his former a.g., bill barr, but yet he's going the support him.

look, let's look at what the polling tells us. let's look at what real elections tell us. look, biden won women by 15 points in 2020. the gender gap is really important for democrats, really important for anyone who is trying to get to a majority in this country, because for better or worse, women are the majority of voters in this country. and the conversation goes, you know, can donald trump cut into that gender gap? what those focus groups tell me and what i'm seeing in my data is it gets really tough for donald trump to garner even more votes among women that it was even in 2020. if you look at nbc's polling, what you're going to talk about at some point, where is donald trump now? he's at 46%. nicolle, where was donald trump in the fall of '23 in nbc polling? 46%. he's not growing his support and he needs to grow his support.

i think a lot of these issues, especially with the way he treats women and the way he disrespects women, gets in the way of him growing beyond that 46%. >> donny? >> i've said this before on this show, women will win this election. there's an ad running -- i forget which state, but it's so powerful. it shows a young woman, sarah may have done this ad, i don't know, but a young woman who is driving and is a policeman following her. >> can we look for this? what is it? >> i forgot which pac did it. a cop pulls this woman over, she's trying to leave the state to get an abortion and says, can i see your pregnancy test? it is like, stunning to see that. we've got to find this ad. >> this is what -- i guess this is the piece i want to understand. i feel like even though of us covering the election should be held to a standard of covering the issues that are going to

decide it. what i keep hearing, women are going to decide it. and if you look at what women who are likely voters who are still undecided, it's not necessarily trump's travails, it's this thing that sarah is talking about, where they're bolstered by policies. he didn't just appoint the justices that overturned roe. he picked them because they would overturn roe. >> and he keeps taking credit for it. he said, i did this. >> correct. as someone who tries to be thoughtful about where we shine a light, i wonder if we're doing a disservice in terms of understand bring the voters are by not focusing on that. we'll be right back. cusing on tht we'll be right back. to a child, this is what conflict looks like.

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we're back with donny, cornell and sarah. sarah, you did that ad. it's these simple, if this then that, right? if you couldn't get hired at the mall, he probably shouldn't be president. tell me about that ad. >> look, one of the things that we see in the focus groups, listening to voters all the time is just donald trump has now been with us for a long time. people are getting numb to some of this stuff. and, you know, the tort cases, just like with so in, it's like that bannon line, we're going to flood the zone with garbage, it creates a kind of, you know, we're all that proverbial frog in the boiling water getting used to this, the new normal. sometimes you just need to reframe things and hammer home some of the basics and wake

people up to say, any -- if you just as a regular person, you know, had been found in civil court of sexual assault, you can't get hired. you know, being accused of 88 -- you got 88 different charges against you, a jewelry store is not going to hire you. a lot of stores at your local mall aren't going to hire you. so the idea that this person who has mishandled nuclear documents we're going to give him the nuclear codes again, has to shake people to remember this is actual insanity. taking this person who has all of this baggage and trying to potentially put him back in charge of the country. and so look, that's the goal with an ad like this. >> i mean, cornell to your point, that's where voters are so disoriented by the likes of bill barr saying he's my guy, and mitch mcconnell. he could not adopt a dog from a shelter, right? you get a background check to take home a dog, and a criminal

check, and he -- and the republicans, people like bill barr and mitch mcconnell are like yeah, yeah, i'm good with that. it's where the disorienting sort of fog of trump comes in and confuses voters and makes these campaigns all the more important. >> well, you know, the campaigns are important, that's a fantastic ad. and what for us political campaign hacks understand about that ad, the power of that ad is it does remind voters, and it drives home a really strong case against donald trump. and to a certain extent, it nails tight the ceiling, i think, that donald trump has. i think donald trump, and we have seen it in several elections, donald trump has a ceiling of close to 46%, 47%. what that ad does is get in the way of him being able to grow that. i think it does effectively stop him from cutting into -- sort of garnering more women votes.

but at the same time, you know, the biden campaign has a story to tell. and while we saw that biden had a large gender gap advantage in 2020, right now in the polling, where he's off is with the key constituencies like women voters who broke hard for him in the last election, and he's got to bring them home, both those women, particularly those women voter and younger voters overall. i do think he has a good story to tell about freedoms and reproductive rights, as well as college loan forgiveness. i think he has a good story to tell to bring these voters home. that is a really good ad at capping or kneeing donald trump off at 46% and hopefully he'll stay there. and nicolle, it's hard for him to garner a majority if, in fact, we have a turnout that's better than 54%. the other problem about the nbc polling is also that enthusiasm is really down at this upcoming

election. >> yeah, i mean, i heard it on our air today that it's sort of the point in the calendar where maybe you look at likely voters, not registered voters. but to cornell's point, it is time to start doing and not talking. how do you do? >> i think part of it, and one of the reasons sarah's ads have been so good and super pac ads have been so good is they have a story to tell. you have done this for a long time, and you know how sometimes you've got to -- you know, it's like you have to -- do it cleverly and do it with bite, and i have to congratulate all the people that have been doing the biden communications, because that old republican bite to it. democrats had that before. underneath that, they have the facts. they have the issues on their side. >> abortion, 70% to 90%, guns,

student loan forgiveness, all these things. >> it's on their side. so i think so far, if this is a precursor of what is to come, if you're trump, you have inflation and biden's age. the border, you can't even go in full steam, because you have an argument against that as far as the republicans have shot it down. tom swazy ran on immigration in -- on the third district in new york and won. so we have a lot more bullets -- metaphor bullets in the gun to work with. >> to be continued. thank you all so much for spending time with us today. after the break, the candidate who doesn't have to be in court, standing trial on any felony counts is on the road campaigning, making his case on all these issues, perhaps the defining issue in 2024. joe biden's message on abortion rights in florida is our next story. stay with us. n florida is our n story. stay with us

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six-week near total ban on abortion, which goes into effect in a few days. it's a ban that was made possible by donald trump's hand picked supreme court justices, overturning roe v. wade. it's one of the many contrasts between joe biden and donald trump. while biden is spending the week campaigning, the ex-president is, of course, in court, standing trial as a criminal defendant in that election interference hush money case. the case deals with payments made to a porn star. it goes in front of the nation's highest court to claim that he's immune from prosecution over his efforts to steal the 2020 election. suffice to say, he's busy. this that case, he'll be represented by an attorney who built his career fighting to end women's access to abortion health care. join us is the white house press secretary karine jean-pierre. i know there are limits, but

let's talk about the president's focus on abortion. tell me about today and tell me what the plan is for the coming months. >> just think about it. you have joe biden, who went to florida to take it directly to the american people to talk about how reproductive rights, women's health care is under attack. you think about the 21 states that have active abortion bans. that affects 30 million women who are of reproductive age, 30 million women. you have women who cannot get health care. they're being turned away for the care that they need. you have doctors who are potentially could get arrested because they are providing care. this is where we are. we have pure chaos, because of what the former president did and bragged about and said i'm going to put justices on the supreme court, so that they could overturn a right, a constitutional right that we have for almost 50 years. we were just talking about our

kids. can you imagine, nicolle? we have more rights than our children have today. >> it's a kick in the stomach realization, especially for our daughters. i wonder how you break through and make sure that every voter knows that? >> so i would say, and i have to be careful about talking about the upcoming election, so i'll take a step back. we had ohio, michigan, vermont, california, kansas, kentucky. when the ballot initiative was on -- that initiative for abortion, protect abortion or wherever you stood to protect a woman's rights was on that ballot, they voted overwhelmingly to protect women's health care. we're talking about kentucky, kansas, we're talking about some -- ohio. >> north carolina. >> north carolina. we're talking about some red states. so a majority of americans support the right of our freedoms, the right to make decisions about our bodies. that politicians should not be

involved in what women decide to do, really difficult decisions. i started off by saying it's been chaos, right? it's not just abortion, we're talking about contraception, everything is under attack right now. and women cannot -- they're saying no, we can't make decisions for ourselves when it comes to health care. that's insane. we are in 2024. so that's what you saw the president do. that's what you have seen the vice president do, going across the country talking about it. >> she went to arizona. >> 1864. >> that's insane. >> 1864. a law from 1864. and by the way, the republicans there won't allow it to be repealed. >> right. >> even after attacking it. >> let me ask you this, you have supermajorities of americans. the republican ban, talking about 22 states that triggered their abortion ban, the bans are

even more unpopular than roe ever was. you have 63% to 76% of americans that believe abortion should be legal. you have 93% of americans that oppose the bans except for rape and incest. the actual practical effect of some of the bans is that women lose their lives, lose their fertility. i think we have some sound of this ad cut for the biden campaign. >> we were told that with 100% certainty, we were going to lose our baby. what i needed at that point was an abortion. we were told i just had to wait until i got so sick that my life was considered in danger. it took three days, and a near-death crash and septic shock before my doctor could provide the health care i needed. what i went through was nothing short of barbaric and didn't

need to happen but it did because of donald trump. over and over again, donald trump brags about killing roe v. wade. and it is unthinkable that anyone could cheer on the pro-abortion bans that nearly killed me. >> amanda's story and the loss of her daughter, willow, complicates republican's arguments that this is about anything other than women's health care. >> it's difficult, because that's one story. there are hundreds of other stories. >> probably thousands. >> thousands of stories where you hear that women have to go -- what they have to go through when they are denied the care. and it is devastating. it is wrong. it is wrong. and amanda and so many other women should have the right, the freedom to make that decision. and that's what we're talking about. that's what the biden-harris administration has been talking about since almost two years ago when roe v. wade was overturned

because of the dobbs decision. we've got to fight for women's rights, health care, their reproductive health care and talk about it. the only way you hear the president talk about this is to make roe the law of the land again. and this is where we are. our freedoms are under attack, our democracy is under attack, and we have to protect that. we have to protect that. and we have to continue to hear stories like amanda's, because that's the only way we are going to break through. but as you were just laying out, the percentage of women and where they stand of americans, the majority of americans don't want to see this. >> right. certainly republicans. >> right. including republicans. so you have to think about these extreme republican officials. what side of history do you want to be on here? you're not standing with the majority of americans, even your own constituents are not standing with you. >> let me ask you about something in the news, that's

what is going on, on college campuses. what is that like, what is the white house position and how do you balance the celebrated right to protest with a genuine fear of jewish students and their families they may not be safe? >> it is a genuine fear, to your point. the president, for passover, put out a statement and this that statement, he condoned -- he condemned, pardon me, he condemned what we've been seeing, the rise of anti-semitism since october 7th. it is scary for the jewish students, jewish americans across the country. we have to condemn that. remember why he ran back when we saw what happens in virginia, the vile, the hatred. any type of vile rhetoric, we have to condemn that. obviously, as you're asking your question, freedom of speech is important. peaceful protesting is important. but when you see hate rear its

ugly head, we have to condemn it. so he put that statement out on sunday. he repeated it again on monday. and we have been pretty consistent throughout this administration. >> is there more you can do, though? i think the problem is that on the campuses themselves, jewish students don't see a uniform reaction. they see members of the faculty marching, they see the horrific messages. and people don't feel safe. is there -- is the white house considering more things to make people safe? >> we have put forward an anti-semitism strategy to make sure students feel safe, obviously jewish students feel safe, and so we'll continue to do that work. but in the meantime, we have to be very clear, we have to condemn. we have to condemn violent rhetoric. we have to condemn any form of hate and that's what the president has been consistent on throughout this administration. >> you're right. the ad that launches its first

run is -- >> we talked about it. we talked about it. >> so much, but we don't have enough time. will you come back? >> it would be my pleasure, my friend. >> so nice to see you. karine jean-pierre on the podium. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. um a quick break for us we'll be right back.

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